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Old 21st January 2013
jacobpressures jacobpressures is offline
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Default Do you consider ONENESS "Christians" Unitarians?

Oneness Christians are those who believe in Modalism, Monarchism, or Sabellianism. These terms are synonymous. Examples are Oneness Pentecostals such as the United Pentecostal Church (UPC). They believe that God appeared in modes (the mode of the Christ, the mode of the Holy Spirit, the mode of the Father.)

Personally, i feel that while they technically can be called Unitarian or have some Unitarian aspects, i think it is insulting. I view Sabellianism as Trinitarianism on steroids! Arianism/Unitarianism was diametrically opposed to Modalism! Trinitarianism obviously lies in the middle. To me, to call Modalists Unitarian is to cause the word to lose all meaning! It is confusing and people will have to add all kinds of additional qualifications to the term to get an accurate picture of what is believed.

Traditionally, Unitarian has meant Arian/Socinian. Yet when i told two friends that I was Unitarian, both of them automatically assumed I was a Oneness Pentecostal -- Something to me that is completely repulsive, but grant it, to them is more acceptable and understandable.

So i was just wondering what you guys thought and if you had similar experiences.

Thanks!
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Old 21st January 2013
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icon_cool GOD can be neither spirit nor physical because He created both

The doctrine of Oneness Pentecostalism states that there is one God, a singular spirit who manifests His Person in many different ways, including as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Arian Catholicism asserts that GOD can be neither spirit nor physical because He created both. Furthermore the Logos (literally the "Saying") is dissimilar to the Father, not of the same substance and not co-eternal. The Holy Spirit is not a person but the power and influence of GOD.

• “The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago.” [Proverbs 8:22 (NRSV)]

• “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him.” [Colossians 1:15-16 (NRSV)]

• “For there is ONE GOD; there is also one mediator between GOD and humankind, Christ Iesous, himself human, who gave himself a ransom for all” (1 Timothy 2:5-6a).


There is but ONE GOD Almighty, no other entity is identical to God or like God in substance, not anything physical nor anything spiritual…

• “…there is no one like YaHWeH our God” [Exodus 8:10]
• “YaHWeH, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” [Deuteronomy 4:35]
• “YaHWeH, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” [Deuteronomy 4:39]
• “See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” [Deuteronomy 32:39]
• “Hear, O Israel! YaHWeH is our God, YaHWeH is one [echad]!” [Deuteronomy 6:4]
• “You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” [2 Samuel 7:22]
• “YaHWeH is God; there is no one else.” [1 Kings 8:60]
• “O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” [1 Chronicles 17:20]
• “You alone [bad] are YaHWeH.” [Nehemiah 9:6]
• “You alone [bad], Lord, are God.” [Isaiah 37:20]
• “Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” [Isaiah 43:10]
• “I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” [Isaiah 44:6]
• “I am YaHWeH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” [Isaiah 45:5]
• “I am YaHWeH, and there is none else.” [Isaiah 45:18]
• “Is it not I, YaHWeH? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Saviour; There is none except Me.” [Isaiah 45:21]
• “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” [Isaiah 46:9]
• “And YaHWeH will be king over all the earth; in that day YaHWeH will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad].” [Zechariah 14:9]
• “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one [hen] and love the other, or he will be devoted to one [hen] and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.” [Matthew 6:24]
• “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord’” [Mark 12:29]
• “you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?” [John 5:44]
• “since indeed God is one [hen]” [Romans 3:30]
• “to the only [monos] wise God, Amen.” [Romans 16:27]
• “there is no God but one [hen]” [1 Corinthians 8:4]
• “yet for us there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Iesous Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” [1 Corinthians 8:6]
• “Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen].” [Galatians 3:20]
• “There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.” [Ephesians 4:4-6]
• “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God” [1 Timothy 1:17]
• “which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honour and eternal dominion! Amen.” [1 Timothy 6:16]
• “You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” [James 2:19]
• “For certain persons deny our only [monos] Master and Lord, Iesous Christ.” [Jude 1:4]
• “the only [monos] God our Saviour, through Iesous Christ our Lord. Amen.” [Jude 1:25]
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Matt 7:13-14 NRSV “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” cf. Luke 13:24.

Last edited by Archiepiscopate Michael-John : 21st January 2013 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 25th January 2013
jacobpressures jacobpressures is offline
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Default

Thanks for the reply. So i assume you don't consider Modalists as truly Unitarian.

As far as God NOT being a spirit, I assume you mean spirit creature--or like OTHER spirits.

John 4:24 clearly says: "God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

Nevertheless I think I get your point. I don't think it is your intention to contradict the Bible. All the other spirit creatures are created in God's image and may be more like him in ways that humans are not.

Best wishes.
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Old 29th January 2013
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icon_neutral Physical, Spiritual & Unfathomable

I would consider that Modalists are on the fringes of Semi-Arianism but are attempting to be trinitarian without admitting it. I dislike using the term Unitarian as this has been corrupted by Universalism. True Arian Catholicism brings us uncompromisingly to the teachings of Yeshua and the Apostles, it is absolutely monotheistic, whereas polytheism (including binatarianism and trinitarianism) is heresy, non biblical and a breach of God's Holy Commandment.

I stand by my words that YaHWeH GOD the Father Almighty is neither physical nor spiritual. What is neither of these is unfathomable and YaHWeH is unfathomable directly (Job 9:10, Romans 11:33, Ephesians 3:20-21), we can only know Him through our mediator, Yeshua, the Messiah. The spirit is often used in scripture in opposition to the physical, but remember the theme of John is set in the first chapter that the Logos is with God, therefore what is declared by GOD is GOD by proxy.
“But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit [pneumati] and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. God is spirit [pneuma ho theos = spirit the God], and those who worship him must worship in spirit [pneuma] and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When he comes, he will proclaim all things to us.” Iesous said to her, “I am [he] the one-speaking to you.” [John 4:23-26]
The context of the passage is a discourse with a woman on the place of worship. Christ is teaching that what is important is that people worship GOD sincerely with their hearts (cf: Matthew 15:8). Having shown that the place is indifferent, he comes to show what is necessary and essential — that we worship God in spirit and in truth. The stress is not to be laid upon the place where we worship God, but upon the state of mind in which we worship him. We must worship God, “in spirit” (Philippians 3:3). We must depend upon God for strength and assistance, laying our souls under his influences and operations; we must devote our own spirits to, and employ them in, the service of God (Romans 1:9), must worship him with fixedness of thought and a flame of affection, with all that is within us.

It is arguable that the text should read: “The Spirit is God”, which would be a declaration. Spirit is sometimes put for the new nature, in opposition to the physical, which is the corrupt nature; and so to worship God with our spirits is to worship him with our graces, (Hebrews 12:28) “in truth”, that is, in sincerity. God requires not only the inward part in our worship, but truth in the inward part (Psalm 51:6). We must be mindful of the power more than the form, we must aim at God’s glory, and not be seen of men; “draw near with a true heart” (Hebrews 10:22).

The clue is back in John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God. It is God [ = one-being] the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.” NO ONE has ever seen GOD! John interprets the logos as God by proxy, which is close to the father’s heart!

In the Aramaic bible John 4:24 is given:
“[23]‘But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers will worship The Father in The Spirit and in The Truth, for The Father also is seeking such worshippers as these. [24]For The Spirit is God, and it is fitting that those who worship him worship in The Spirit and in The Truth.’ [25]The woman said to him, ‘I know that The Messiah is coming, and when he comes, he will teach us all things.’ [26]Yeshua said to her, ‘I AM THE LIVING GOD, I who am speaking with you.’”
GOD is an infinite and eternal mind, an intelligent being, incorporeal, immaterial, invisible, and incorruptible. It is easier to say what God is not than what he is; a spirit has not flesh and bones, but who knows the way of a spirit?
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[Isaiah 55:8-9]
In Genesis 1:1 God created both “the heavens and the earth.” This is a euphemism for Everything; before which there was no heaven.
For thus says the Lord,
who created the heavens
(he is God!),
who formed the earth and made it
(he established it;
he did not create it a chaos,
he formed it to be inhabited!):
I am the Lord, and there is no other.

[Isaiah 45:18 (NRSV)]
Therefore as GOD created the heavens His nature exceeds that which is heavenly.
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Michael-John

Mt Rev Dr Michael-John Mackenzie, BA (Hons), DD, MIOP, acOSB
Archiepiscopate - Primus Inter Pares
Senior Overseer - First Among Equals
Arian Catholic Church and Theological Society
Archdiocese of York (incorporating Northern England and Scotland)


Matt 7:13-14 NRSV “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” cf. Luke 13:24.
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