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Textual Criticism & Scriptural Theology This Forum is for discussing an analysing different scriptural texts and the teachings therein.

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  #1  
Old 7th January 2011
Danage Danage is offline
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Default John 19:19

Shalom aleichem,

I don't know exactly where to put this, but, having been a practicing Jew, and now being a Jewish Christian, I came across a verse in the Word of God that showed that Yahoshua/Yahushoa/Jesus was God.

That verse is John 19:19, being: 'And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.'

Now, what does this verse tell us? It tells us something that my people will refuse to believe, that the great teacher, Yahoshua of Nazareth, was in fact Eloah.

The title, 'Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews' tells us more than just that title. It tells us that Jesus Christ was God, because the Hebrew says: 'Yeshu'a Hanotsaret Vemelekh Hayehudaim' (Yahoshua, the Nazarene, King of the Jews' more or less). Yeshu'a is the Hebrew word for 'salvation', Ha is 'the', Notsaret means 'Nazarene', VeMelekh is derived from the title HaMelekh Moshiach (the Anointed King), Yehudaim means 'Jews' in Hebrew ('im' is indicative is plurals in Hebrew). Of course, some of the Hebrew could be wrong as I haven't read Hebrew for several months.

Now, the name and title (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews) spells out the name of the Most High God. If Christ was not God, then surely God would not have given Him the name 'Yahoshua', or had Him come from Nazareth? As this is so, I now believe that Yahoshua really is the God Who saves (hence His Hebrew name).

I would be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on John 19:19.

Todah.
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Old 7th January 2011
Postulare42 Postulare42 is offline
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Pilpul, Dan, pilpul
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Old 7th January 2011
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icon_rolleyes Aramaic to Greek to English to Hebrew back into English

Pilate also had an inscription written and put on the cross. It read, “Jesus of Nazareth,e the King of the Jews.”
e Gk the Nazorean

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Jn 19:19). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

The Gospel of John was originally written in Greek, "Jesus" is the modern rendering of his personal name, but he was never known by that name. The Greek rendering was "Iesous" but he was never even known by that name either! Aramaic was his native language and his name in the Aramaic is phonetically: "Yeshua".

"Yehoshua" is rendered as "Joshua" in the modern English and is the original root of the name meaning Saviour, from which Yeshua is the Aramaic derivative; nevertheless, Yeshua was never called Yehoshua.

As for making an assumption that Yeshua is GOD (YaHWeH) based on a series of erroneous translations from the Aramaic to Greek to English to Hebrew and back into English and then using a name that he was never known by... well, interesting, but it doesn't prove anything!

Probably as a legacy of it's four major redactions leading into the second century the Gospel of John has picked up some Gnostic and Spiritual allegory. Around 200 AD, Clement of Alexandria noted that John's Gospel was spiritual, as opposed to the Synoptics, which recorded the historical facts. According to the majority viewpoint today, Yeshua's teaching in John is irreconcilable with that found in the Synoptics, and scholars have chosen the version found in the Synoptics as representing the teaching of the historical Yeshua.
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Matt 7:13-14 NRSV “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” cf. Luke 13:24.
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Old 8th January 2011
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Originally Posted by Danage View Post
Now, the name and title (Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews) spells out the name of the Most High God. If Christ was not God, then surely God would not have given Him the name 'Yahoshua', or had Him come from Nazareth? As this is so, I now believe that Yahoshua really is the God Who saves (hence His Hebrew name).
That's not really a new thing. You just have to face the question: How God? In the Arian sense? In the Adoptionist sense? In the Trinitarian sense? In the Modalist sense?

It's said that God is in the Sons of God. I believe that God is in Jesus, and that God's name is in Jesus, like it was in the angel that led the people of Israel in the desert (or rather God that led the people of Israel), and since it's supposed that the Tetragrammaton is God's name, I wouldn't find it so surprising that it would be found in places like this. I would question the method though. Looking at Peshitta might yield something, otherwise it's just guessing.
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Old 9th January 2011
Pilgrim Pilgrim is offline
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Notice how you've managed to squeeze the vav (or waw) of the Tetragrammaton in by making it a conjunction, so that the English translation would have to read, "Jesus of Nazareth, and the King of the Jews." In Greek, the conjunction would be kai, but that word does not appear in the text. It's as if someone thought, "What should be there must be there." If the Divine Name had been intended, surely all four letters would be there.

Last edited by Pilgrim : 10th January 2011 at 02:41 AM.
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Old 9th January 2011
Danage Danage is offline
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Default My Reply

Thanks for all your responses. I shall have to read some more and consider, and pray. My Hebrew skills have almost gone, so I'm just using what I remember. The name on the cross could be the name of God, and I do believe that everything is significant, but as to whether it is, I will have to pray on this.

Shalom.
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Old 9th January 2011
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Default Defining words, do they matter?

Shalom to all,

I have been researching the topic of tetragrammaton and leading into how words, such as God, Jesus, Lord, and Adonai stand up to truth. In this letter I am only touching on God and Jesus for starters. This research ranges between 500 BC and 500 AD - the Greek influence on our holiest of holy names.

I found that the following excerpt shows the tip of a proverbial iceberg:

"The Kumarbi tale shows up in a Hittite text that predates Hesiod by some 500 years. Hesiod"s Theogony follows the sequence so closely that borrowing almost certainly took place and thus this aspect of Greek myth shows aspects of Babylonian, Hittite, Hurrian and Canaanite mythology"
Read more: Phoenician influence on Greek Religion 900-600 BC: The Oriental influences seen in the Gods and Goddesses worshipped in Greecehttp://phoenicia.org/greek.html#ixzz1AZAhFAuE

This evidence shows how Greek theologian concepts seem to have slowly injected themselves into Judean theological beleifs. To me it is clear that Greek influence seems to have affected the defining progress of later Judeo-Christian words and customs. Also seen, is the influence this may have had on the concepts of Trinity (the Counsel of Nicaea) and during the reign of Constantine, a newly reformed Christian, were the concept of God, through a Greek perspective, could loose it's truest meaning.

Here is an example of a Greek mythological definition of God:

In Greek mythology Zeus (pronounced /ˈzuːs/ or /ˈzjuːs/; Ancient Greek: Ζεύς; Modern Greek: Δίας, Dias) is the "Father of Gods and men": (Source: wikipedia.com)

And in turn, so to the meaning of the word Jesus:

A transliteration from Hebrew to Greek, to Latin, to English (ie-sous converts to Je-sus,) and similar to (ie-zeus) that when transliterated to Hebrew means "God Zeus", and a strong argument to Constantine influenced concepts of Trinity, were Constantine was raised under Greek custom.

From what I have learned Yahushuah means Yah (YHWH) + SHUA (savior or helper of YHWH), and nothing more or less. In being zelous of Elohim's truth, I felt compelled to share this. This to me is significant. Does anyone else see that destinction?

In closing, I am but learning - and in that confess to know nothing, so please do not hesitate in sharing your thoughts / studies, that I may continue mine.

Again, Shalom... May YHWH's will always be.
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Old 10th January 2011
Postulare42 Postulare42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Danage View Post
Thanks for all your responses. I shall have to read some more and consider, and pray. My Hebrew skills have almost gone, so I'm just using what I remember. The name on the cross could be the name of God, and I do believe that everything is significant, but as to whether it is, I will have to pray on this.

Shalom.
Brother, are you kind when you could be mean? Do you return blessings for harm? Do you forgive, even when to do so may not be pragmatic? When you have done wrong, do you admit it? When you have harmed another, do you make amends wherever possible? Do you remember to build others up, rather than tearing them down? Do you visit the imprisoned, comfort the grieving, tend the ill, feed the hungry, clothe the naked? Do you strive to keep the Father in your thoughts as a first consideration prior to any action? Do you try to avoid things and action which are harmful to you and/or others? Do you try to reduce distress and insert happiness into whatever situation you find yourself in? Do you strive to learn, grow, and improve yourself in order to be a finer tool for the Father's use?

See?

"My yoke is easy, my burden is light"
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Old 10th January 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Postulare42 View Post
Brother, are you kind when you could be mean? Do you return blessings for harm? Do you forgive, even when to do so may not be pragmatic? When you have done wrong, do you admit it? When you have harmed another, do you make amends wherever possible? Do you remember to build others up, rather than tearing them down? Do you visit the imprisoned, comfort the grieving, tend the ill, feed the hungry, clothe the naked? Do you strive to keep the Father in your thoughts as a first consideration prior to any action? Do you try to avoid things and action which are harmful to you and/or others? Do you try to reduce distress and insert happiness into whatever situation you find yourself in? Do you strive to learn, grow, and improve yourself in order to be a finer tool for the Father's use?

See?

"My yoke is easy, my burden is light"

Thank you Dear brother, I see your point. I am of recent recovering from a very bad accident and have much time on my hands. I find myself in deep research and contemplation for I am physically isolated and have been for some time. With that said, I yearn to move in my faith again, and yet I continue prepairing, as all men of YHWH have done before me, and in His will. I thank you for your wise words.

Shalom.
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Old 11th January 2011
Postulare42 Postulare42 is offline
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Thank you Dear brother, I see your point. I am of recent recovering from a very bad accident and have much time on my hands. I find myself in deep research and contemplation for I am physically isolated and have been for some time. With that said, I yearn to move in my faith again, and yet I continue prepairing, as all men of YHWH have done before me, and in His will. I thank you for your wise words.

Shalom.
The wise words are not mine. They are collected from the records entitled Mark, Matthew and the letters of Peter, James and John.

Aleichem shalom
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