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Doctrine and Discipline of the ACC This sub-forum is to ask questions and discuss issues of Church Doctrine (A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief; dogma) and Discipline (the system of government regulating the practice of a church as distinguished from its doctrine).

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  #1  
Old 15th February 2007
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Default Ten Commandments or eleven?

Deu 10:4 where the LORD wrote the Ten Commandments on them, just as he had done the first time. The commandments were exactly what he had announced from the fire, when you were gathered at the mountain. After the LORD returned the stones to me,

This verse dont say eleven commandments, and other translation says "ten words" I think that it is ok spoke ten commandments than eleven...
And in this verse says in the "first time" then it is the same 10 words what was in the Exo.20:1-17. Even this dont say us it is 10 words, but Deu.10:4 says it. What is church answer in this question? because the arian church teach eleven command. I am curious to know how important this is to your church.
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  #2  
Old 16th February 2007
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Post The Decalogue and the Beatitudes

Dear Miseretur,

The Bible makes reference to the Ten Commandments (or Words according to the Rotherham's Emphasised Bible) in three places: Exodus 34:28 and Deuteronomy 4:13 & 10:4; but the ACC website goes into much detail analysing Exodus and Deuteronomy (http://arian-catholic.org/arian/commandments.html) and reveals that there are actually thirteen distinct commands/statements in seventeen verses of Exodus and sixteen verses of Deuteronomy, some of which are clearly not laws but beliefs and also pertain only to the children of Israel; e.g. "I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage." However we can consistently find between Exodus and Deuteronomy eleven separate and distinct commandments.

Professor Andrew C. Zenos (Dean and Professor of Biblical Theology at McCormick Theological Seminary, Chicago) is quoted as saying: “The arrangement of the moral precepts in the form of ten commandments was neither demanded by the nature of the subject nor suggested by logical or philosophical considerations. It is the result of deference to the popular regard and conventional value of the number ten, recognized at the time.”

Therefore the number 10 was adhered to due to the popularity of the number and that of those who were literate at the time, few were accustomed to counting beyond ten fingers and therefore numbers beyond ten were often regarded with mystery or even fear.

The important point about this isn't so much the number of commandments, Protestant churches merge the fourth and fifth commandments to keep to the number ten, but the omission and mutilation of the commandments, which is a gross apostasy of Rome.

In contrast I would like to see another article on the Beatitudes as the Church's view is that there were four taken from the lost Q document, to which Matthew added a further four and Luke added four Woes. Matthew also uses six woes against the Pharisees. There is an interesting contrast between the spiritual character of the Messianic kingdom through the Beatitudes and the Mosaic Laws, which in fact led Marcion of Sinope to believe that the God of Moses was not the same God of Christ!
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Last edited by The Kurgan : 16th February 2007 at 08:40 PM.
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  #3  
Old 18th February 2007
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Default who was moses God then?

Sorry my english is not so good, but are you saying that moses have diffrent God, Who was that God then? If I understand your writtings? Ok I see that arian Church teach these questions diffrently...
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Old 23rd February 2007
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Default

since were dealing with the Torah, according to biblical hebrew, I would say that there are 10...
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Old 23rd February 2007
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OH! Sorry My Misteke, now I understnad what you write heh...
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Old 6th February 2012
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Default numbering of the commandments.

Which tradition Arian Church is Following when they numbering commandments? Eastern or "western" tradition.
Here Finland Lutheran church is following Augustinus tradition. When we leave
This section out. see below.
2.Moos.20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

And They mark it like this.
I. I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me
II. Do not use the Lord thy God's name.

This is Roman Catholic way mark these laws. But I see here very big problem? See the bible verse in beginning of my text.
Lutheran church leave whole idea of second commandment out of it real meaning.
Or have they take this bible verse too literally
1.Co. 8:4 Concerning therefore the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no God but one.

And other thing when they drop out one of the commandments, they split last two piece. which in practice only confirms the previous. IX and X.
How it is in the Anglican Church?

I think ortodox tradition is here right. They are following early christian tradition than a Augustinus.
it is the manner in which the commandments are numbered is not supposed to matter. But I think it has a large coat matter if we leave out an entire command. like Martti Luther did.
He explained it by the fact that no one make any more un gods pictures
such a good Bible teacher when he was in some cases. so here he is very much mistaken., or what?

Here are the commandments direct from the bible. ASV.

2.Moos. 20:2-17. (exodus)

I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me, and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;
but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee.

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- + -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See also a link this question.

http://www.sundaysoftware.com/ten/number.htm

Last edited by miseretur : 6th February 2012 at 04:09 PM.
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  #7  
Old 28th February 2012
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Default Hebrew numbering

I think we ought to turn to the People who first received the Torah to receive true light on the subject. At the same time we ought to keep in mind the contents of the Commandments and how each of us could best keep then, rather than dwell on the number and division too much.

The Hebrew people number the Commandments thusly:


(1) "I am Yhwh, thy God," etc. Then followed:
(2) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me [beside Me].
(3) Thou shalt not take the name of Yhwh thy God in vain.
(4) Remember the Sabbath-day.
(5) Honor thy father and thy mother.
(6) Thou shalt not murder.
(7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
(8) Thou shalt not steal.
(9) Thou shalt not bear false witness.
(10) Thou shalt not covet

(Source: Jewish Encyclopdaedia
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Old 5th March 2012
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Default You shall not make for yourself a graven image.

the target of criticism is the Second Commandment,which concentrates on.

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image."

not enough to say, you shall have no other gods before me.

People can easily think of at this time, the worship of images is ok. and provide them with up to a certain value in cult.

European "Christians" buy souvenirs or other interior stuff to their homes.
and think that they are just beautiful objects. But in reality, these objects and statues have been made to idolatry (home gods).
the way we are secular the religious feeling of the interior decoration of objects of religious value. I think a Christian should not take home the statue which was originally made ​​to an idol. And worship in.
popular are also Buddha images...
Buddha is in reality ( they thought) an incarnation of the Hindu gods. and it is more what one historical person.

I do not want to keep Satan's image at my home.
what do you think dear brothers and sisters in Christ?
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