I am wondering

[miseretur]

Personally, I do not belive the so-called adoptionism.
If that were true, then God would then be able to use any other, but Jesus was also a descendant of David, whit his flesh.
I believe that in the baptism in Jesus missoin was brightened to him also.
but thi was also a testimony to other peoples who were in that palce then.
God himself testified that this is my son.

Jesus was holy, when hi was birth.

Luk. 1:35 The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come over you, and the power of the Most High will cover you. Therefore, the child will be holy and will be called the Son of God.

The appearance of an angel just referring to the fact that, this child is a Holy.

Luk 2:11,12. Today your Savior, Christ the Lord, was born in the city of David.
And this will be a sign for you: You will find a baby wrapped in strips of cloth and lying in a manger."

Luk 2:21. After eight days had passed, the child was circumcised and named Jesus, the name given him by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Luk 2:40. Meanwhile, the child continued to grow and to become strong. He was filled with wisdom, and God's favor was with him.

Luk 2:46,47. Three days later they found him in the temple sitting among the teachers, listening to them, and asking them questions.
All who heard him were amazed at his intelligence and his answers.

Luk 2:49. He said to them, "Why were you looking for me? Didn't you know that I had to be in my Father's house?"

[miseretur]

Welcome to this forum Culugh

It´s glad that the, new members will and take part in discussion.



haku

[Postulare42]

In the Hebrew theology, "son of God" does not mean what it has been developed to mean in christendom. While I do not subscribe to adoptionism without some reservation, I do believe that there is strength in the some of the points. One of the records gives Yeshua as saying that we can become "sons of God".

I must constantly remind myself that christological enquiry and discussion must not be allowed to obscure the message of Yeshua.

[Hermes]

Of course there should be some reservation, the same as with Arianism, and any other "ism". We should only be in Christ, "isms" are just descriptions. Normally people think that Adoptionism means that Jesus was "adopted at his baptism to become the Son of God". That is Adoptianism, a Trinitarian version. The quotes from Luke only apply to that, and further demonstrate the folly of Trinitarianism. These terms are mixed quite often, so pay attention whenever reading about these ideas. The idea of being a Son of God is not the same as in Trinitarianism, since they see "the Son" as being "God's second person".

Jesus was for his whole life on earth without sin, even before his baptism. A loyal child of his Father, in a loving union with his God. The idea is more that Jesus was anointed at baptism, that the Spirit entered into him, so that Jesus could fully begin his ministry. He begins to do miracles such as healing. I see this as quite acceptable. Also, Jesus did say that the Apostles will do even greater things than he did. The Spirit does work miracles in whoever God wishes. However there is only one who has lived a sinless life.

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Originally Posted by george

Can somebody clear my ideas?

First, let me say that I do not reject outright ANYTHING in ANY Gospel or epistle. I don't have to. The places which are continually used to support the Trinity simply do not support them.

Messiah stated that he did not do anything of himself, but whatever the Father did, he also stated that the very words he spoke were not his but the Father's. Therefore if Messiah's every deed and word were the Father's that means that he who saw Messiah saw the Father (for Messiah is in Father's image).

This does NOT MEAN that Messiah and the Father were "one in the same person."

When the sheep and goats are separated and judged in the end times Messiah will say to the sheep "I was hungry, thirsty, sick, in prison" and you took care of me, and the sheep will ask "when did we see you?" He will say "when you did it not to the least of my brethren you did it not to the least of me."

Therefore, we know that he who sees the BELIEVER is SEEING JESUS, in the same way that he who saw Messiah saw the Father. We represent Christ on this world and whatever the world does to the least of Christ's brethren they are doing to Christ himself!

This is a rock solid principle supported by numerous scriptures.

Christ was the "proxy" of the Father, as such he who deals with Christ deals with the Father, (this is true even of proxies in the world). When you speak to a proxy you might as well be speaking to the one who sent the proxy, and when a proxy speaks he speaks in the place of the one who sent the proxy.

The problem is with the lack of understanding of the Holy Spirit.

The same Christ who said "I and the Father are one," also said and prayed that we would be "one with the Father" even as he is "one with the Father." This, of course would be an impossibility (us being one with the Father as he is one) if Messiah's oneness existed because he was IN FACT the Father.

Some things are common sense.

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Originally Posted by Mpilo

I believe that the following verses will be used to support the Trinity:

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

AND

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I have always been told that only Jesus will return or will come to earth. Do the above verses say anything different.

God bless

Revelation 1: 8 is not Christ speaking! Every scholar agrees on this. Go get any RED LETTER EDITION of the KJV (or I believe any) Bible and look at 1:8 you will see it is NOT in red. They are simply mistaken on this.

Later Christ calls himself the "alpha and omega" and the "beginning and the end," but these are "titles" that apply to both the Father and the Son, for the Father is the alpha and omega and hte beginning and the ending of HIS PLAN and Messiah is the plan, so he too is the alpha and omega which is why he says "I am the beginning of the creation of God" in Revelation 3:14. (The obvious question to ask any Trinitarian is how can he even call himself the beginning of the creation of God, if he is in fact God and has no beginning or ending?)



Revelation 1:8 is NOT CHRIST speaking.

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Hermes, you are a true blessing!

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Originally Posted by george

Does that mean that you reject Paul's (the apostle's) idea that Jesus Christ frees us from the authority of the Law, as he said in the letter to the Galatians?

Listen, and I am going to say this in no uncertain terms. The notion that Jesus Christ freed you from the authority of the law to so that you can live your life in sin and still go to Heaven is a lie of the Roman Beast Government.

You cannot prove that statement in scripture, and Christians who attempt to prove it quickly discover the truth of the matter.

Messiah did not come to eliminate and do away with the law (he even said that blatantly). He came to "fulfill."

The law is now "written in our hearts and minds through the New Covenant" (unless you want to deny the New Covenant). How can we be free from what is written in our hearts and minds?

Only he who fulfills the law is free from the law! I can prove this scripturally!

The liberty you describe "freedom from the penalty of the law so you can go on sinning freely" is not liberty at all but is horrible and utter BONDAGE to sin!

As the apostle wrote

"Promising them liberty when they themselves are the servants of all manner of sins."

It is a twisted lie and deception of the Devil, designed to destroy your liberty you are promised through Messiah and keep you forever in bondage to your sins!

Quit buying into it, before it's too late!

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Trinitarians twist the words of Paul (Saul of Tarsus) continually and I'm noticing that some arians buy into this twisting and conclude that Saul was a heretic! It simply isn't so!

Saul never told the Galatians they were "free from the authority of the law" and he never once told us that the law is "done away" in Christ.

Here's just one example of Galatians that exposes this false testimony concerning the letter to the Galations:

"But, if while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Chist the minister of sin? God forbid?
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Fir I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I life; yet not I , but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Galatians 2: 17- 21

The problem with the mainstream interpretation of these verses comes in their lack of understanding of what it means to "live by faith." If you read the letter of James and the letter of Jude in their entirety you will see that living by faith means that you "do the works of the Righteous Christ." Faith without works is DEAD being alone!

Paul, in the above quotes states clearly that if you are "found sinning" while trying to live "in Christ" you make yourself once again the transgressor and you "destroy" that which you are trying to build!

Walking in "faith in Christ" does not excuse you from the law and from ceasing from your own sinful works, but does quite the OPPOSITE in fact which is causes you to do the works of Christ (who did the works of the Father)!

That is why in the previous verse to the above quoted text he states:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Galatians 2: 16

Where Christianity has gone wrong is concluding that because we cannot through the efforts of our own flesh follow the law, we therefore no longer are required to follow the law and the law is dead. These are conclusions NOT supported in scriptures. Again, the problem lies in that Paul states we are justified by the faith of Christ and Christians have believed the lie that this means faith alone saves you (and they do not know what it means to "believe" for if they believed Christ, they would follow him, and if they would follow him they would "love as he loved" for this was his direct command, and if they love, the law is FULFILLED in them BY LOVE, rather than by fleshly observances).

If you read Galatians again, keeping this principle in mind, you will understand that only "empty observances" and "attempts to fulfill the law in your own fleshly power" are done away here. Yet, we are NOT LEFT ALONE to our own power as believers. We have the Holy Spirit and as a result the LIVING CHRIST IN US, and we can indeed "do all things through Christ who strengthens us."

(Of course this entire post is heresy according to the trinitarians for only their CHRIST could live this way and they simply IGNORE all of the scriptures that command the believers to live in this LOVE and in this SPIRIT).

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Trinitarians twist the words of Paul (Saul of Tarsus) continually and I'm noticing that some arians buy into this twisting and conclude that Saul was a heretic! It simply isn't so!

Saul never told the Galatians they were "free from the authority of the law" and he never once told us that the law is "done away" in Christ.

Here's just one example of Galatians that exposes this false testimony concerning the letter to the Galations:

"But, if while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Chist the minister of sin? God forbid?
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Fir I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I life; yet not I , but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Galatians 2: 17- 21

The problem with the mainstream interpretation of these verses comes in their lack of understanding of what it means to "live by faith." If you read the letter of James and the letter of Jude in their entirety you will see that living by faith means that you "do the works of the Righteous Christ." Faith without works is DEAD being alone!

Paul, in the above quotes states clearly that if you are "found sinning" while trying to live "in Christ" you make yourself once again the transgressor and you "destroy" that which you are trying to build!

Walking in "faith in Christ" does not excuse you from the law and from ceasing from your own sinful works, but does quite the OPPOSITE in fact which is causes you to do the works of Christ (who did the works of the Father)!

That is why in the previous verse to the above quoted text he states:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Galatians 2: 16

Where Christianity has gone wrong is concluding that because we cannot through the efforts of our own flesh follow the law, we therefore no longer are required to follow the law and the law is dead. These are conclusions NOT supported in scriptures. Again, the problem lies in that Paul states we are justified by the faith of Christ and Christians have believed the lie that this means faith alone saves you (and they do not know what it means to "believe" for if they believed Christ, they would follow him, and if they would follow him they would "love as he loved" for this was his direct command, and if they love, the law is FULFILLED in them BY LOVE, rather than by fleshly observances).

If you read Galatians again, keeping this principle in mind, you will understand that only "empty observances" and "attempts to fulfill the law in your own fleshly power" are done away here. Yet, we are NOT LEFT ALONE to our own power as believers. We have the Holy Spirit and as a result the LIVING CHRIST IN US, and we can indeed "do all things through Christ who strengthens us."

(Of course this entire post is heresy according to the trinitarians for only their CHRIST could live this way and they simply IGNORE all of the scriptures that command the believers to live in this LOVE and in this SPIRIT).