Arian Anglican Clergy?

[bupanishad2012]

Back in the 1960s when I was in a Bible College, I read somewhere that about 90% of the Anglican (Church of England and/or Episcopal) Clergy were Arian in Christology. How was that then, and how true now, if so?

[Archbishop Michael-John]

The Church of old Britannia didn't formally recognise Vatican rule until the Synod of Whitby in 664 AD; even then it never really accepted the church of Rome, although trinitarianism still filtered through.

The Reformation was a golden opportunity to restore the early Church, eliminate trinitarian heresy and apply Christianity with logic and reason; however those in power at the time were not brave enough to tackle the issue of the trinity. :twisted:

In my own personal experience I would say that at least half (and probably more) of Anglican clergy tend to share Arian beliefs but dare not admit it publicly.

The Rt. Rev'd Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, has written a book about Arius: "Arius (Heresy & Tradition)" which is in its revised second edition. In it he argues that Arius is in fact a dedicated theological conservative whose concern was to defend the free and personal character of the Christian God. >:-O

I have no idea of where such a statistic of 90% came from or how it could have been calculated, I presume it was an educated guess!

[RabbiBarry]

I have met a number of Catholic Priests who when put to the question sidestep it. They say Yeshua is the Son of G-d which is not the same as saying he is G-d.

[Danage]

The Roman Catholic priests do not like confrontation or debate, so they will avoid it at all costs. Remember, they believe they will go to Hell if they renounce any part of Roman Catholic belief as they will be 'excommunicated'.

Also remember that Arianism was the greatest enemy of the Roman Catholic Church and since the Arians were defeated the Roman Catholics had to wipe out any form of Arian belief in their church. If the Roman Catholic Church's priests were to hold to Arian beliefs then they have just stabbed themselves in the foot and the Roman Catholic Church that is full of inconsistences, great confusion,and is close to collapse, would surely die.

[RabbiBarry]

What is your opinion of Orthodoxy? Are the Great Satan as well? There is no question that the Orthodox Churches descend from the very earliest time. How do you feel about the Nestorian Churches, the Church of Armenia, the Coptic Church of Ethiopia, and the Church of the Chaldeans. Are they worthy of interaction?

[Danage]

The Eastern Christian Orthodox and Oriental Christian Orthodox Churches would be less fervent in their Trinitarian beliefs, as would other churches. They don't have the threat of excommunication hanging over their heads.

[LeviathanNI]

The Roman Catholic priests do not like confrontation or debate, so they will avoid it at all costs. Remember, they believe they will go to Hell if they renounce any part of Roman Catholic belief as they will be 'excommunicated'.

Also remember that Arianism was the greatest enemy of the Roman Catholic Church and since the Arians were defeated the Roman Catholics had to wipe out any form of Arian belief in their church. If the Roman Catholic Church's priests were to hold to Arian beliefs then they have just stabbed themselves in the foot and the Roman Catholic Church that is full of inconsistences, great confusion,and is close to collapse, would surely die.

Lets be careful not to tar all with the same brush.. It was a priest who suggested that I look into Arianism, after many theological discussions (which we never agreed upon). He became a trusted friend, and our discussions a weekly event.

[RabbiBarry]

[QUOTE=Danage;723]The Roman Catholic priests do not like confrontation or debate, so they will avoid it at all costs. Remember, they believe they will go to Hell if they renounce any part of Roman Catholic belief as they will be 'excommunicated'.

I am not sure which Catholic priests you have talked to. I know twenty or so and one I consider a mentor. His grandfather was a Rabbi and he pushed me to think more deeply about Judaism and Christianity. Roman Catholics may not debate boors. They may not debate with children. They may not debate with people who have not kept up on textual criticism, who are not scripture scholars, who have no background in theological discussions, but they will debate with equals who are not out to convert them.

Now I grant that most parish priests are not themselves experts in textual criticism, scripture or theology. They will refuse to debate you because they feel inadequate and one of the things that they have been taught is that they have the high ground and do not have to debate anyone.

I have many friends who are Protestant ministers as well. I have met only two who are seriously qualified to debate on major issues.

Evangelicals are the least qualified to debate.

The advice I would give to you is this: if you wish to debate a serious scholar or just to discuss with them follow these rules: 1) be respectful of their learning; 2) do not try to convince them of your position; 3) stick to one subject at a time; and 4) be aware of what the true disagreements between you and their church are. This is just common sense stuff, but many do not know how to do this.

I have friends who are world-class theologians. They talk to me as an equal. I am pleased to be treated like that even though I think they are more qualified to speak as theologians. On the otherhand, most of them have no practice at being clerics. They do not regularly preach, say ritual, visit the sick, hear confessions, counsel, pray for healing, organize and work for relief of the poor, or run a parish. One glaring exception is the Reverend Jeffrey Butz who is an active Lutheran Priest.

I know that I who am an expert in Constitutional Law and have argued 15 constitutional cases in front of the Kansas Supreme Court do not like it when laymen argue the Constitution with me. They have no understanding of precedent. They do not know how to interpret words. They have not researched cases. And they have no standing before the Supreme Court which is the final arbiter of who is qualified to argue these matters. It works the same way with religion.

There is nothing I like better than discussing religion. I cannot be proselytized. I do not want any glory so I am happy with my religion. But I love to point out glaring problems in the religion of others and in so doing, I am forced to discover where my sect stands on such issues. Like this church which is seeking its way in the modern world and trying to guide itself with the limited resources that it has, this is a task of try and fail and try again.
Let me give you another piece of advice: go to Mass, serve the poor, lay hands on the sick, study the Scriptures and books written by experts, volunteer to help people and then you will gather others around you who will want to know the source of your faith. Then, you may be challenged by Priests and Ministers to prove yourself; do it with dignity and be well prepared. Do not indulge in ad hominem attacks and vigorously point out ad hominem attacks on yourself.

[Jesus John]

The Roman Catholic priests do not like confrontation or debate, so they will avoid it at all costs. Remember, they believe they will go to Hell if they renounce any part of Roman Catholic belief as they will be 'excommunicated'.

Also remember that Arianism was the greatest enemy of the Roman Catholic Church and since the Arians were defeated the Roman Catholics had to wipe out any form of Arian belief in their church. If the Roman Catholic Church's priests were to hold to Arian beliefs then they have just stabbed themselves in the foot and the Roman Catholic Church that is full of inconsistences, great confusion,and is close to collapse, would surely die.

I also read that the Nicaea council made against Arius (Peace be upon him) and his friends. The reason was about his opinions and believe on Jesus. I knew that he reject Jesus (Peace be upon him) as a God (Also in divine) accept him as human Messiah and worshiped God as only one. The Roman Catholic Church and the Byzantium empire was disturbed from Arius and his opinions. Constantine made the Council in 325 CE and blasphemied Arius and his friends upon their faith about Jesus because Arius had only 20 priest with him but against them there was at least 300 priests. Constantine was a suporter of the Roman Catholic church for this reason the decisions declared as a view of the Roman Catholic church. After this council the trinity was really accepted. Arius was killed at 336 CE.

Love,

Oguzhan

[Danage]

I also read that the Nicaea council made against Arius (Peace be upon him) and his friends. The reason was about his opinions and believe on Jesus. I knew that he reject Jesus (Peace be upon him) as a God (Also in divine) accept him as human Messiah and worshiped God as only one. The Roman Catholic Church and the Byzantium empire was disturbed from Arius and his opinions. Constantine made the Council in 325 CE and blasphemied Arius and his friends upon their faith about Jesus because Arius had only 20 priest with him but against them there was at least 300 priests. Constantine was a suporter of the Roman Catholic church for this reason the decisions declared as a view of the Roman Catholic church. After this council the trinity was really accepted. Arius was killed at 336 CE.

Love,

Oguzhan

Ultimately the Roman Catholic Church is a warped form of Mithraism (iirc), the unified religion of the Roman Empires. In Mithraism Zeus is Jupiter, Mars is Ares etc. The concept of a unified religion throughout the Empire allowed for seamless integration of cultures.

When 'Christianity' was adopted as the religion of the Western Empire ultimately true Christians had the last laugh in that a false Christianity brought about the Western Empire's final fall on 4th September 476 C.E. and the Eastern Empire collapsed almost a thousand years later due to the Ottoman Empire.

The reasons for the destruction of the Western Empire are numerous, but false Christianity was one of the deciding factors in that many conquered peoples were pagan or Zoroastrian, and did not want to worship the Triune G-d.

Of course the people who caused the destruction of the Western Empire were Arians:

the Vandals took Carthage, cutting off grain shipments, hence weakening the power and position of the Caesar
the Goths killed the Emperor of the East at Adrianople in 378 C.E., and went on to sack Rome in 410 C.E., after turning back from Ravenna (the Western Imperial capital)
the Heruli eventually sacked Rome on 4/9/476 C.E. and toppled Romulus Augustus from the throne in Ravenna
the Ostrogoths destroyed the Heruli and slowed the Eastern Empire's conquest of Rome, but ultimately failed in their mission
The many Arian rulers of the former Empire eventually converted to Roman Catholicism, but either way the Arians destroyed one form of the Roman Empire, but faced submission or the sword with the Roman Empire of the Pope.

While it is true that the Arian Visigoths under Theoderic assisted the Western general Flavius Aetius, 'the last true Roman', the idea of Romano-Gothic co-operation was weak due to the Western Empire relying on forgein powers to destroy their enemies, and then recruiting their enemies to destroy their former allies.

Their reliance and ill will towards Arians eventually led to the destruction of the Western Roman Empire of the Caesars once and for all, and while there were many other factors in it's collapse the fact that the Romans tried to convert back to paganism in desperation truly
showed that the warping of Imperial paganism was a mistake that cost the Western Empire it's life.

[Postulare42]

Here's a link to a group that refers to themselve as "ante-Nicene" and Anglican:

http://www.lfftn.org/index.htm

Their mission statement seems a bit fundie to me, especially inre their views on the Judeo-Christian scriptural canon. In other areas, it seems fine, and even laudable.

If it hasn't already occurred, someone may wish to make contact with this group.

Then there is this link:

http://anglicandiocese.org/

and:

http://livingtruthworldwide.org/

and:

http://www.csif.org.nz/

and:

http://www.ante-nicenechurch.org/

and:

http://www.achurchinfortcollins.org/index.php :)

[Archbishop Michael-John]

The "Living Faith Anglican Church" is actually a variation of the Anglican Catholic church.

It is pro-trinitarian and confesses the heretical Nicene and Athanasian creeds. It follows the 1662 BCP (Book of Common Prayer) (the ACC currently uses extracts from the 1549 and 1552 BsCP as they are good sources of early Catholic liturgy), it believes that the bible is the inspired word of God (presumably it is referring to the KJV with all its obsolete English, errors, mis-translations, re-translations, redactions etc), it also receives the 39 apostate Articles of Faith (which have no place in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church) and acknowledges only two sacraments (Baptism and Eucharist) in contrast with the early Church.
:reveek:
Jesus, the Messiah, was the rock upon which he built the Church, his teachings are immutable, his Church irreformable!

[Postulare42]

How strange. Didn't show on their website. That must account for the "fundie" feeling I mentioned.

Thanks for the heads-up!

[Hermes]

Ante-Nicene which is actually Nicene? Isn't that an oxymoron? Kind of like "a giant dwarf".

[Danage]

I think I read somewhere that the Anglican Catholic Church split from the Church of England (described as a cross being Roman Catholicism and Protestantism) over allowing women to be ordained as ministers.

I believe that women should be able to become ministers as all are equal in the eyes of G-d. I do not know if this is accepted in the ACC, but this is what I believe.

It's interesting how the Living Faith Anglican Church takes the Phi-Chi Rho symbol and combines it with both the Cross of St. George and the flag of the Kingdom of Jerusalem (Trinitarian Kingdom of the Levant 1099 - 1187). I also find it hard to accept any form of Trinitarianism and the idea that you can use rock bands to spread the messages of the Christian Messiah (e.g. the modernist churches not using more ancient ways of music, instead using guitars to make the music).

They also put this: "The Jerusalem Cross: Symbolising "There is One Church that reaches the four corners of the earth. It's not yours. It's not mine. It's CHRIST'S!".

OK, I accept that statement but it should not be applied to their church.