Secret Societies

[bardaisan]

What is the Church's teaching on societies like the Masons, Eastern Star and other such secret societies and societies with secrets?

[Postulare42]

This is going to be veeery interesting.

[Archbishop Michael-John]

What is the Church's teaching on societies like the Masons, Eastern Star and other such secret societies and societies with secrets?

While there is a need for security and confidentiality in the Church, especially when discussing individuals, finances, sensitive missions and forthcoming plans, which give rise to committees and specific roles to deal with such matters (compare also with the secret Apostle St Nicodemus of Jerusalem (John 3:1-22, 19:39-40)), the Church is strictly opposed to memberships of cults and occult / secret societies such as Masonic lodges. Such actions are regarded as apostasy and an abandonment of and a departure from the communion of the true Church.

See http://bibleprobe.com/freemasonry.htm .

One cannot serve two masters! To be an Arian Catholic and to follow Christ requires devotion to God and adherence to the Christian Commandments. We cannot therefore also swear allegiance to a secular body or non-Christian occult religion or sect. To do so is a deliberate act of apostasy and results in an automatic tacit resignation from the communion of the true Church.

An example of this was when Roman Catholic Bishop Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli joined the Rosicrucian Masonic Sect in 1935. By this very act of changing religions he “tacitly resigned” (Canon Law 188 # 4.) from all offices in the Roman Catholic church and was no longer a member of that church. Yet he went on to become pope John XXIII in 1958 who led the RC Christo-Pagan sect into deeper apostasy through the second Vatican council of 1962-5.

I strongly advise the faithful NOT to sell their souls to Satan by falling for the temptations and false promises of such occult societies. They trap promising people so that they can be manipulated like puppets to serve the needs of evil. Likewise do not fall into apostasy by being seduced by the trinitarian houses of Asmodeus.

The door is always open for those who wish to repent and be reconciled to God; see Luke 15:7.

[miseretur]

It is clear that the Freemasons are not Christians, many of their teachings and rituals are more copies of the mystery religions.
The rich men will meet and make a very cruel things to boost they power what they have. I have read these masons very much. I think they really worship devil and money. political power is corrupted by money.


Christian faith is not hidden or it is not pseudo elitist or some secred group mambership. Church is open to every one. Gosbell is public information to all.
Someone of course keep the truth under the lie, and not tell poeples the real truth, like state church usually do. Rom. 1:18 For God's wrath is being revealed from heaven against all the ungodliness and wickedness of those who in their wickedness suppress the truth.
I am glad that Arian church are against this heresy movement.


Isa.45:19
I have not spoken in secret, in a place of the land of darkness; I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I, Jehovah, speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Joh. 18:20
Jesus answered him, "I have spoken publicly to the world. I have always taught in the synagogue or in the temple, where all Jews meet together, and I have said nothing in secret.


1.Ti 6:19-21.
By doing this they store up a treasure for themselves that is a good foundation for the future, so that they can take hold of the life that is real.
Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the pointless discussions and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge.
Although some claim to have it, they have abandoned the faith.
May grace be with all of you!

[Postulare42]

None of this sounds like the guys I know.

Over here, all over the country, we have the "ELKS" clubs. They are generally referred to as the place where the Masons and the Knights of Columbus go to drink and play poker.

I am also a onetime benficiary of the services of the "Shriner's Children's Hospital". The Shriners are a group of Masons who do fund raising to build hospitals that provide free health care for children.

I have known many members of DeMolay and Job's Daughters as a youth, many of whom went on to complete University educations on scholarships funded by the Masons. Some elected to join lodges. Some did not.

Locally, they are closely connected with establishing the volunteer fire departments which are the first line of defense against structure and forest fires in the mountain towns. Another group of Masons formed a subgroup to build and maintain cemetaries, crematoria and columbaria for non-church and indigent persons.

Their charities really are quite extensive.

I know about some of the more sensational incidents in recent history, like the P2/black friars murder (really a mafia group that had infiltrated the Vatican bank); the accidental shooting at a lodge in New York, etc.

This just doesn't fit with the masons I know. Religiously, they are men from a variety of denominations, who find masonry easy because it teaches only a minimal deism that doesn't preclude more developed and specific beliefs.

It is really funny to note that most of the conspiracy theories that claim sources can be traced back to a publishing scam from many deacdes ago that the perpetrator admitted was a fraud after he made a bunch of money from the gullible. If you trace some of the authors' sources back, and back, and back . . .you get to this clever sensationalist and fraud.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/taxil.htm

Generally, we are told to check our sources. Also generally, most of us forget to check our sources' sources. lol

I learned this truth over a quarter of a century ago when i was writing a paper on Burmese history and culture. As I progressed throught he extant literature, I began to notice a couple of things.

First, most citations I encountered came from the first 75 pages of their sources. This caught my attention.

Second, when I checked on the cited sources, they all referenced a small handful of other authors. Upon examination, they all either referenced each other or this one other souce: Chatterjee. I sought out Chatterjee, read his small body of work and dicovered that not only were most of his writings based upon anecdotes collected from tourists, the little original data he did present had been subsequently superceded or disproved by more hands-on ethnologists and analysts.

So this whole group of authors liberally cited in the literature must be scrapped, along with all the subsequent theories and conclusions derived from them.

Possibly one of the handful of truly useful lessons I got from higher education . . . and it didn't come from a Prof.

Having known members of LaVey's Church of Satan personally, and assorted "occult" personalities of our time, I have found little similarity, if any, between them and the Masons. The Mormons seem more dark and tending to global domination than the Masons I know.

Well, that is my testimony on the matter.

Here is something that may interest you. If you have broadband, give an ear. These guys are REALLY scary, despite their claims to christianity.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120746516

[miseretur]

Conspiracy theories have always been and always will be. Some of them are true and some not.The truth is that where money and power face. So there is a strong intrigue and conspiracies.
1Ti 6:10. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, in their eagerness to get rich, have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with much pain.
Many charitable organizations, paternity and Humanities clubs are devils organizations. Satan is not stupid, but he disguises himself in such organizations behind.
2Co 11:14-15.
And no wonder, since Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their doom will match their deeds!

Freemasons and other secret society members will do good, that their lies would go through easily. Sure, budhalaisetkin do good, and yet their religion is from Satan.Today may be good publicity for the participation of all the world's charity concert. Think like Obama or what hi is called him self. Hi like Gay man, and like killing babys. and the release of stem cell research.
Obama is anti-christ, hi is false messiah to peoples. I read that madonna the pop star say that, when obama was selected to president of north amerika. Hi says that that was his best day (madonna)Can the world be any more hypocrisy?
If Mans act are conflict whit act of faith. It doesent matter what hi says.
Abortion is murder, all life are holy. Gay man are sodomite.

Mat 24:23-24.
"At that time, if anyone says to you, 'Look! Here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!', don't believe it.
For false christs and false prophets will appear and display great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

[Postulare42]

Brother miseretur,

Sometimes, approaching your posts is a bit like facing a shotgun loaded with a mixed charge. It won't be the first time for me (literally), so here goes.

At first I was tempted to follow where your post was leading, and jump to defense of Masonry, the President of the U.S., etc.. Then I realized that these were not my primary concern. Neither of them need my defense. Once I reminded myself of this, a question occured to me.

Do you know any Freemasons personally ?

[miseretur]

It is quite difficult to write in a foreign language very well mr Postulare 42.
Finland has several policies which are the Freemasons, their leadership has also become the public domain (Arto Uusitalo) a few years ago the Journal published a list of members, I do not know where it got it, but the list was to include a number of celebrities here in Finland.
I have the experience of these secret clubs, because unfortunately my grand father belonged to one of which was the headquarters of the north America (california).
Why I linked-American president, also, is the fact that I brought to the attention to the fact that the power behind it is not always the goodness, but evil, secret societies such as the political machinations.
Ilke obama his power is not from God, Hi is only playing his political games.
Obama's political popularity was based on the phenomenon of the extreme weakness of the second way, how to lead the America. george bush was opposed. neither of these guys wasnt what they claim to be.
Both was wrong messiah.
I did not even vote our election here in Finland.
Political consensus is always separated from God because they do not trust the Lord, but to human beings.
Of course, the bible calls to pray on behalf of governments.
But just because they come from the faith and make decisions relying on the Holy Spirit.
This is not Christian view, that political decisions are taken that allow the murder of the unborn child.It is my intention to preach as if things are.
I do not have to please the devil who claims to be good, and still wants to murder the children and the dedication of gay marriage.
But in this case, I trust the Lord and he shall judge.
My weapon against the tricks of these are only the word of the Lord.
Freemasons are the elite of power, and therefore it is good to know who really is a free devils veins, when he makes political decisions.

[miseretur]

Brother miseretur,

Sometimes, approaching your posts is a bit like facing a shotgun loaded with a mixed charge. It won't be the first time for me (literally), so here goes.

At first I was tempted to follow where your post was leading, and jump to defense of Masonry, the President of the U.S., etc.. Then I realized that these were not my primary concern. Neither of them need my defense. Once I reminded myself of this, a question occured to me.

Do you know any Freemasons personally ?

So I thought, yet write that the language described what you say, Mr Postulare42.
facing a shotgun loaded, hah that was Good, I just get good laught about that:) you cheered my day:jlol::-)()

[Postulare42]

I really am not sure how to evaluate what you write, Brother. Perhaps you could explain your thought a bit more. I have a few specific questions to start us.

Why must the elected leader of a country be evaluated as to whether they are a "messiah" ? It has never occurred to me, or to anyone I know that a President is supposed to be a messiah.

You see, we have never had a formal State religion. Our Constitution prevents it. Many times groups have tried to make one to be so, but the rest of us have prevented it. Europe's history has shown the wisdom of this.

Right now, there is a very dangerous group of rightwing fascists who are trying to put their beliefs into our laws. They are masquerading as religious leaders, but their purposes are entirely political control. They use religion, and religious-sounding issues to gather the less educated and control their votes. We even have a southern State Governor that has openly spoken of secession, which is not a legal act in this country; and is an issue that was decided forever by our Civil War in the 1800s. Further, his statement and the attempt to influence others in this way, is Sedition and High Treason.

Unlike the Countries of Scandinavia, the U.S. has NEVER been a nation of one religion, one nationality or one ethnicity. Our laws are written to allow plurality . . . for different peoples and ideas to live together in peace and cooperation, or at least tolerance. That has been the ideal and the goal of this country. The ideal. But through our history, there have always been persons or groups who cannot comprehend this ideal . . . slaveholders, fascists, criminals, totalitarians of one kind or another, greedy men, corporations, churches. It has not always been easy to maintain our ideals and find ways to restrict them without violating our principles.

I suspect that is as difficult for me to understand Finland, which is basically a mono-culture and mono-ethnicity, as it is for you to really understand a country based upon pluralism. The psychologies are very different.

[Postulare42]

Oh. I forgot. Are you saying that you DO know some freemasons personally, or are you saying that you DO NOT know any freemasons personally?

[Postulare42]

. . . facing a shotgun loaded, hah that was Good, I just get good laught about that:) you cheered my day:jlol::-)()

I bear the scars. Drug dealers are dangerous.

He died. One of my many sins.

[miseretur]

Oh. I forgot. Are you saying that you DO know some freemasons personally, or are you saying that you DO NOT know any freemasons personally?


My grandfather was a member of a secret society ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucianism) is not really a Freemason?.
But the follow-up action, however is similar.
An old friend of mine's grandfather, was not want to join Freemasonry, and for and when he refused membership of the Freemasons they stole his money and possessions. almost 1 million finland mark, in that time that was lot of money.
here in Finland there are many policies and businessmen who have been exposed as the Masonic. Thay all have some grip of the political power and influence to avery day politic issues.
Masons do not deny God, but they worship the god, ways what are unknown to Christianity. They views are more like gnostic.
I forgot to mention that my friend's grandfather was a Christian and therefore refused membership of freemasoners.
and that is why he paid a heavy price.

[miseretur]

I really am not sure how to evaluate what you write, Brother. Perhaps you could explain your thought a bit more. I have a few specific questions to start us.

Why must the elected leader of a country be evaluated as to whether they are a "messiah" ? It has never occurred to me, or to anyone I know that a President is supposed to be a messiah.

What I was trying to say, that people worship a number of political figures such as the Messiah. And because they can not be messiah, then they are false Messiahs.
ordinary peoples easily give these political figures false idol features.
And of course history have many good leaders and many many bad ones.
But to me personally irritate human deification, I do not like that, some christians worship political figures. We have only One Lord.
Every political or religioius power what rest in human ways are opposed to Gods way. Polittiset leaders can be a Christian, but then they have to stick to the Word of God.
We in Finland, this is a problem because we have a state church and the president is the head of the Church.
And when we elected the first female president, so he is not even been to church member, also hi was lesbian and communis, left wing radical.
Here we have a problem with how the church leader who does not even belong to the church.
America, this model is better, because in America there is no state church.
American culture differs considerably from the European culture, of course many ways but also a religious way.
In Europe there is more formulas and traditions behind every thing, and some times that is good. Our history is so diifferent, Not to mention a Finnish culture.

Our ideas are diiffrent, but I do not think that Obama want to be a false messiah, but peoples give him this rights to be one. Hi have power and hi have power to change things.
In America is also common to speak of faith and religion as part of the political opinions.

Dan.2:44.
And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Luk. 4:5-7.
The devil also took him to a high place and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in an instant.
He said to Jesus, "I will give you all this authority and the glory of these kingdoms. For it has been given to me, and I give it to anyone I please.
So if you will worship me, all this will be yours."

Joh. 14:27,30.
I am leaving peace with you. I am giving you my own peace. I am not giving it to you as the world gives. So do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid.
I will not talk with you much longer, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no power over me.

2Co 10:3-5.
Of course, we are living in the flesh, but we do not fight in a fleshly way.
For the weapons of our warfare are not those of the flesh.
Instead, they have the power of God to demolish fortresses. We tear down arguments
and every proud obstacle that is raised against the knowledge of God, taking every thought captive in order to obey Christ.

Mat 5:10 "How blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to them!

[miseretur]

I bear the scars. Drug dealers are dangerous.

He died. One of my many sins.

Is this some epigram question? Or what, who Died?
Yeah sure, Drug dealers are very difficult persons. But I've also seen many of those coming in faith.
Drugs are satans new tool, to handle modern youth...
In fact I have to deal with them also at work, my work is in security business.
But I also see meny in prisons, where we go to spread the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ. There I see they scars.
But Jesus is our Heavenly doctor, all of us:) not only drug dealers...

Heb. 13:3.
Continue to remember those in prison as if you were in prison with them, as well as those who are mistreated, since they also are only mortal.

[Hermes]

We in Finland, this is a problem because we have a state church and the president is the head of the Church.
And when we elected the first female president, so he is not even been to church member, also hi was lesbian and communis, left wing radical.
Here we have a problem with how the church leader who does not even belong to the church.

This is false information. There is no state church and the president is not the head of the Lutheran church, not even nominally.

There are two religions which have the right of taxation and the burden of having to take care of the cemeteries: the Lutherans and the Eastern Orthodox. These are not state churches, but sometimes they are called "people's churches".

[miseretur]

This is false information. There is no state church and the president is not the head of the Lutheran church, not even nominally.

There are two religions which have the right of taxation and the burden of having to take care of the cemeteries: the Lutherans and the Eastern Orthodox. These are not state churches, but sometimes they are called "people's churches".

The President of Finland is the Lutheran church's head, the President is still one of the person who elected prayer subjects of the state.
Although the President has lost the right to name bishops, thank God from that:)
President is also patron of church taxt collector. and the president continue to participate in religious services on government. The President is also army chief, although he did not even have not been to the army.
The army and the church have relations with each other. Independence Day celebration receptions are a sign of this.
Although the formal Juridical has been overlooked, so it does not mean that the reality are like it, or What you have mind Mr Hermes.
Lutheran Church and the Orthodox Church continues to enjoy popularity in the state.
Orthodox Christians in Finland is less than 100, 000 and yet they are state protected. This is because just as the history of Finland we had the Russian Empire which was power to the Church, and Because lutherans are allways "worship" (i dontknow better word) state they had in real problem?
Who is the church head? and real "smoothie" what they were, they ask the emperor rule the church.
Thats why we, even today have two state church, or better word to day peoples church, but this is just language game (discursus)
As I write mr Postulare42, the American way is here better. No state church. This two regiment doctrine is Lutheran church biggest stumbling block, that is only my view obout that issue.
You are right what you write.
We do not have here "state church" in it reals matter enymore since 2003 new freedom of religion law. practice is different, however, why president joined the church if hi is not head of church This happed when hi was elected president year 2000.

[Hermes]

She did not join (http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarja_Halonen#Muuta) the Lutheran church, and presidents have not been even nominal heads (http://wapedia.mobi/fi/Keskustelu:Suomen_tasavallan_presidentti#11.) of the Lutheran church for a long time. History is history, today is today.

If the politicians want to suck up to the Lutherans on special days then they can go right ahead, that does not make it a state church. All religions are protected by the constitution even if two of them do have a special status. Because Islam and Judaism have representation in the army, does that make them state religions? No it doesn't.

There is a big difference between a state church and the so-called "people's church" system. Compare the system in the other Nordic countries and you'll see the difference.

PS. She is also not a lesbian or an actual communist. But you probably consider social democrats communists.

[miseretur]

PS. She is also not a lesbian or an actual communist. But you probably consider social democrats communists.


Tarja Halonen has a long line in SeTa ry, and I guess we all know what they are. It is quit easy to belive that we have sodomist president.
http://www.helsinki.fi/~eisaksso/tarja.html
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/olli.stalstrom/tarjaolli.html

1Co 6:9.
You know that wicked people will not inherit the kingdom of God, don't you? Stop deceiving yourselves! Sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals,

Even thirty years ago it was easy to be a communist, and here finland it was real. Our president is also atheist.
Yes I consider her a communist...
why he took the "man" reached only after hi was elected the president?
I think his bublic image:) if women is Feminist, Communist, lesbian, atheist, can hi really be a true and worthy president?
In fact, I am ashamed of such leader...
But we must still pray that she will take Jesus in her life, and reject his wicked and ungodly ways.

Thanks Hermes your links, I know that our church aren`t enymore a state church, in it special meaning. But what words I use, it isnt the point.
My idea was different, but maybe I can´t write in a foreign language at all clear enough...
nobody is perfect not even Obama:D

[Postulare42]

Brother miseretur,

I do not know anybody who views politicians as "messiahs". If you do, please name them personally.

Here in the U.S. we celebrate the election of Mr Obama to the presidency, even those who do not agree with his politics or political party. There is a very important historical reason for this. The slave trade. Perhaps it might be best to view the elation of the people as related to a type of national repentence on the issue of race relations.

Of course, those whose identity is based upon exclusion have been looking for another group to exclude. One of the first lessons a child learns on the playground is the formation of "clubs" and "cliques". In these beginning stages of socialization, such groups are defined by little more than what might be characterised as "We are special because we say you are not, and cannot join". Sadly, many adults have not grown past this almost infantile sense of social grouping. However much they wrap this childish principle in high language and causes, the underlying motivator remains the same . . . and is quite evident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XTSZ9TFk7A

[miseretur]

Dan 2:44.
And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Zec 14:3 Then shall Jehovah go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Mat 22:20-21.
And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Jas 4:4. Ye adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore would be a friend of the world maketh himself an enemy of God.

1Jn 5:19 We know that we are from God and that the whole world lies under the control of the evil one.

Rev 16:14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs. They go to the kings of the whole earth and gather them for the war of the great day of God Almighty.

Rev 19:19-21.
Then I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.

The beast was captured, along with the false prophet who had performed signs on its behalf. By these signs the false prophet had deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.
Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

The rest were killed by the sword that belonged to the rider on the horse and that came from his mouth. And all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Political power has come´s from satan. satan is this world ruler.
where people rely more on man than God, so it makes people a wrong messiah, their poilitical leaders.
Because they accept all glory, which really belongs to God.
See below some video, it have some ideas, not necessarily fully represent my vision. Politics is poison and will seek to expand the power of people.

Ecc.8:9.
All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time that man has dominated man to his injury

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=697411175718394085#docid=707744500 1372641188

[miseretur]

What comes to slavery,can not be a political hobbyhorse.
Obama himself does not even be a negro, hi is mulatto.
Obama also used the former president errors at his weapons. There we have only two false messiah other war maniac and other liberalist, who like gay´s an killing liitle babys too.
Church is not leaders of the revolutionary...
The Church has always urged humble and kindness, not rebellion, and a row about. Therefore, it is impossible for a Christian to participate in political activities
otherwise thank you for the link :) good eighties music... guy look like Billy Idol heh...

1Co 7:21-22.
Were you a slave when you were called? Do not let that bother you. Of course, if you have a chance to become free, take advantage of the opportunity.
For the slave who has been called in the Lord is the Lord's free person. In the same way, the free person who has been called is Christ's slave.

Eph 6:6-9.
Do not do this only while being watched in order to please them, but be like slaves of Christ who do God's will from the heart.
Serve willingly, as if you were serving the Lord and not merely people.

For you know that everyone will receive a reward from the Lord for whatever good he has done, whether he is a slave or free.

Masters, treat your slaves the same way. Do not threaten them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

[Postulare42]

Wow. That was a lot of stuff. I am still waiting for a much simpler bit of information.

Do you personally know anyone who sees the U.S. president as a "messiah"?

btw: "mulatto" were slaves, too. The racists in U.S. history worked out complex rationalisations for their bigotry.

[miseretur]

Wow. That was a lot of stuff. I am still waiting for a much simpler bit of information.

Do you personally know anyone who sees the U.S. president as a "messiah"?


If people worship the man, so would it make it peoples false messiah?
This is apparently very difficult to explain, but if you've been following the news, or other media, it doesent matter what of those. so it is quit naive
argues that the recent elections were somehow ordinary.
Here in Europe and all world peoples wayt what happened in election.
Obama get first nobels peace trophy, and why? hi is so wanted leader after George bush that peoples go nuts of him.
Some popular figures like "madonna" or what gabbalist mambo jambo witch she is. she says that that was great day for him, and all about those media populist worship him as like messiah?
Even a Michael Moore who make some "documentary" or what populist mouth mocking it is.
Amarikan entire nation was divided two in last elections. All Liberal front was behind Obama, Obama freed many Laws, what protect American christian values.
Do you know communist ideology? that is full of atheist.
Ok, but still communist ideology is full of religion? do you see what I try to tell you? There is no God, but there is Messiah? they worship human persons, like it is some cult.
Politic is all of questions of persons. peoples like have cult figures. Of course they did not say, we dont worship them. Just like catholics say, we dont worship Virgin Maria. O really...
What peoples say and what and how they act is the question.
Peoples worship and Idols sport stars too. rock singers and you name it what more...
How meny persons try to be a idol? I think not so meny, but still they have those marks on they public image.
These media figures are modern day saint, and rock conserts are like pilgrimages. Do you see similarity? This is religion behavior...
Man dont get rid of it, even a communist did not. They have stalin and Hrutzevich and Lenin. and many others. Nationalsosialist German have they messiah, A.Hitler.
Know the whole world watch what obama is doing.
Why they not ask God what what we can do, why they ask a man that.
what makes liberalism evil is that it is making in the name love, Satan acts. Obama was also see an economic savior. Man who save he whole planet, real super hero.
Obama met with the Dalai Lama too. That is great start. Anti christ and false religions. The dragon and the false prophet, world power and religion.
see bolow links, some of them are quit funny:)
I hope you understand what I try to tell you, at least some of that.

http://www.obamaformessiah.com/

http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/

http://www.newsweek.com/id/169192

http://o.bamapost.com/

[Postulare42]

What are the Swedish and Finnish words for "tabloid", "ratfucking" and "dogwhistling" ?

:o (Sincerest apologies to the moderators, but the second word is an important term and concept in the history and practice of American dirty politics which has neither a euphemism nor synonym)

[Hermes]

What are the Swedish and Finnish words for "tabloid", "ratfucking" and "dogwhistling" ?

:o (Sincerest apologies to the moderators, but the second word is an important term and concept in the history and practice of American dirty politics which has neither a euphemism nor synonym)

:jlol: Literal or otherwise?

If you want Swedish, I advice using a dictionary. :p

[Postulare42]

:jlol: Literal or otherwise?

If you want Swedish, I advice using a dictionary. :p

Literal would be easy, but with the possible exception of "tabloid" I really doubt that transliteration would convey the real meanings, much less so the realities of the political methodologies suggested.

It just occured to me that "agitprop art" might also be included in that list.

[Hermes]

Literal would be easy, but with the possible exception of "tabloid" I really doubt that transliteration would convey the real meanings, much less so the realities of the political methodologies suggested.

It just occured to me that "agitprop art" might also be included in that list.

There's a Golden Rule for non-native speakers. Just add an "i" at the end of everything and pray that you'll be understood. So the first one's easy: Tabloidi. :p

[Postulare42]

So how would one say "Red Top Tabloidism" ?

[Postulare42]

Pertinent:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0808/Dogwhistling_the_antiChrist.html

[David Kone]

With all the confused logic circulating around the semantics of a religion that has become moribund in a viewpoint supported entirely by the misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the language and culture of a group people who lived over two thousand years ago I have become convinced that it is we “Christians” who have fallen into the occult and mystifying power of our own ignorance.

I am a loner by nature and have little drive to fulfill the basic human need to belong but most folks are not like me. They have a powerful need to join with other folks in something in which they can feel good about themselves and others. For many this would include such organizations as the Masons, Elks, Republican party etc. It is not an evil impulse that drives them only gregariousness and mostly the happenstance of knowing someone who invites them in. If there is a Devil involved in the choice then he must be a fool for I can think of so many faster more wicked paths he might direct his pathetic lot. Indeed, I would think by the regular evidence of hate and ignorance spewed by many Christians I come into contact with that he surely must be directing his minions to the local churches for weekly instructions on mercilessness and injustice.

Perhaps what is not being said here is that there is a competition in ceremonial magic. Yes, that is what masons do, well not so magic, but lots of ceremony much like the big apostolic churches. The churches, perhaps, are afraid of the small chance that the masons are better at the evocations of ceremony than they are at actually laying bricks. Then to, perhaps, if the churches were actually adept at the spiritual brick work they purport to do, of building the Temple of the Lord of Justice and Mercy, then the Sovereignty of Heaven would likely dispel all evil influence which inflicts them and we would not have to worry about all the plotting of men behind closed doors.
o:)

[Thomas V. Dvoracek]

There was Rundle, Station Master,
An' Beazeley of the Rail,
An' 'Ackman, Commissariat,
An' Donkin' o' the Jail;
An' Blake, Conductor-Sargent,
Our Master twice was 'e,
With 'im that kept the Europe-shop,
Old Framjee Eduljee.

Outside -- "Sergeant! Sir! Salute! Salaam!"
Inside -- "Brother", an' it doesn't do no 'arm.
We met upon the Level an' we parted on the Square,
An' I was Junior Deacon in my Mother-Lodge out there!

We'd Bola Nath, Accountant,
An' Saul the Aden Jew,
An' Din Mohammed, draughtsman
Of the Survey Office too;
There was Babu Chuckerbutty,
An' Amir Singh the Sikh,
An' Castro from the fittin'-sheds,
The Roman Catholick!

We 'adn't good regalia,
An' our Lodge was old an' bare,
But we knew the Ancient Landmarks,
An' we kep' 'em to a hair;
An' lookin' on it backwards
It often strikes me thus,
There ain't such things as infidels,
Excep', per'aps, it's us.

For monthly, after Labour,
We'd all sit down and smoke
(We dursn't give no banquits,
Lest a Brother's caste were broke),
An' man on man got talkin'
Religion an' the rest,
An' every man comparin'
Of the God 'e knew the best.

So man on man got talkin',
An' not a Brother stirred
Till mornin' waked the parrots
An' that dam' brain-fever-bird;
We'd say 'twas 'ighly curious,
An' we'd all ride 'ome to bed,
With Mo'ammed, God, an' Shiva
Changin' pickets in our 'ead.

Full oft on Guv'ment service
This rovin' foot 'ath pressed,
An' bore fraternal greetin's
To the Lodges east an' west,
Accordin' as commanded
From Kohat to Singapore,
But I wish that I might see them
In my Mother-Lodge once more!

I wish that I might see them,
My Brethren black an' brown,
With the trichies smellin' pleasant
An' the hog-darn passin' down;
An' the old khansamah snorin'
On the bottle-khana floor,
Like a Master in good standing
With my Mother-Lodge once more!

Outside -- "Sergeant! Sir! Salute! Salaam!"
Inside -- "Brother", an' it doesn't do no 'arm.
We met upon the Level an' we parted on the Square,
An' I was Junior Deacon in my Mother-Lodge out there!



-THE END-
Rudyard Kipling's poem: The Mother-Lodge

[Aurian555]

What is the Church's teaching on societies like the Masons, Eastern Star and other such secret societies and societies with secrets?

Some, like myself, being obsessed with God or spirituality, hunger for more than religion can or will offer, and Secret Societies can provide a path to the mystical that is not otherwise available. I myself have delved into such paths at times, but eventually found that most such groups have a definite anti-personal-god and pro-secular/humanistic agenda or point of view.

However, religious mysticism has always been part of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and most saints could be classified as mystics of a sort.

For myself, I read about prophets wandering in the desert, and I went and wandered in the desert. Fervent prayer and worship, the pouring out of one's heart and soul to God, even the passionate and focused chanting of the Hebrew/Greek names of God, or the archangels, or a saint, or the Messiah--all these can yield wonderful experiences with the Divine. Yet, for me, I keep finding that God is utterly, completely, personal, and that God is indeed Love, but also virtue and discipline, and such experiences put me at odds with the mysticism of Secret Societies.


Peace Be Unto You:innocent:

[Just Plain Dave]

Jesus asks his disciples about the use of a lamp in Mark 4:21-23. He points out that it is not meant to be brought in and placed under cover. If a message or teaching is worthy, it should be proclaimed freely to all, just as a lamp offers light to the entire area around it. It seems to me that those who are working in everyone's best interests should be transparent. Those with ulterior motives have need for secrecy.
Believe what you will.

[Aurian555]

Jesus asks his disciples about the use of a lamp in Mark 4:21-23. He points out that it is not meant to be brought in and placed under cover. If a message or teaching is worthy, it should be proclaimed freely to all, just as a lamp offers light to the entire area around it. It seems to me that those who are working in everyone's best interests should be transparent. Those with ulterior motives have need for secrecy.
Believe what you will.

Any association with secret societies I may have had in the past, has long since gone by the way side, yet I did not critique them from the outside.

Early Christians practiced their faith in the catacombs beneath Rome, and even in underground cities... Arians themselves went into hiding and became a secret society in a way. Being secret is sometimes a matter of survival and, in modern times, it is about reputation, keeping ones job and not having one's car and home vandalized by a hostile and ignorant population. Mainstream Christians (so-called Christians) can be very violent and agressive and discriminatory against anyone they consider outside the norm, including Arian Christians.

My own experience with secret societies was in a search for those who have had what could be termed, "Mystical experiences." Yet what I found among these groups, was extreme liberalism and belief in an impersonal god, which caused me to fall away.

[Thomas V. Dvoracek]

I found the following in a book available online called THE NEWLY-MADE MASON By H. L. Haywood, published in 1948. The following chapter provides some insight, I think, to better understand the relationship between religion and Freemasonry.

RELIGION AND MASONRY

During the middle ages Britain had two governments, side by side, equal in authority, the Civil Government with the King at its head, and the Church with the Pope at its head. The Church in the first instance governed itself and the religious Orders, but its rule also extended over everything outside the church which in any way had to do with religion, directly or indirectly, and these latter sometimes were at many removes from theology, as when the Church prescribed how much money women could pay for their clothing; it could levy taxes, and it had its own lawyers and law schools, had its own courts, its own trials, its own police, and its own penitentiaries-the word itself is a theological name, "place of penitence." Its rules were in general called The Ordinances of Religion; the body of its law was called Canon Law. This extended itself over the whole of Britain in the form of immovable rules which bore on almost anything a man could do, in part if not wholly, in sports, dress, trade, money, amusements, family life, calendar, and schooling. So large was this empire of the Church that at one period it and the religious Orders together owned one-third of England, it had a larger revenue than the Civil Government, it even had its own army.

This religion called itself catholic, or universal, not only because it sought to extend itself over the earth to become the only religion in the world, but also because it extended itself with an almost complete universality into men's daily affairs. It did not shut itself into one building or into one day of the week. There was nowhere a wall between the sacred and secular, not because it did not recognize a distinction between the two, for it did and the distinction was sharply drawn, but the Church believed itself to have authority to dictate to the secular at any point it desired to. It did not remain apart from politics, business, or work. Business contracts were drawn in theological language. Bankers were not permitted to charge interest because the Church condemned it as usury - one of the principal reasons for the poverty of the Middle Ages. Farmers planted, cultivated, and reaped according to a Church calendar, and had special ceremonies for each season of work. Each of the crafts, arts, trades, and professions was organized in gilds, fraternities, companies and sodalities, and wherever any of these touched upon any matter belonging to theology, faith, observance, or ceremony they were regulated in doing so by the Ordinances of Religion. Their rules and regulations were drawn in the name of the Trinity and of the Virgin Mary. Apprentices were admitted by a religious oath. Each had one or more Patron Saints, observed the Saint's Day as a holy day, and went in procession to the Saints' Chapel, and these holy days became so multiplied that as many as onefourth to one-third of the days of the year were set aside for them - another reason for Medieval poverty.

The above facts explain a difficulty which for a long time puzzled many Speculative Masons; if for four or five centuries Freemasons were all builders and architects in the literal sense, and if for two additional centuries the majority of them were operatives, how does there come to be so much religiousness in the Fraternity? Why is its oldest document begun with an invocation to the Trinity and to the Virgin Mary? Why an altar in the Lodge Room? Why a Volume of the Sacred Laws? Why a religious oath? Why prayers? It is because during the centuries of Operative Freemasonry the Fraternity was as much under the Ordinances of Religion as other crafts and gilds.

The same facts also explain many elements in the Ritual and the Ceremonies. They are there because for centuries the Ordinances of Religion required them to be there. Those Ordinances were operative over men's thoughts, beliefs, conduct, clothing, marriage, death, customs, behavior. etiquette, decorum, they made rules to require painters to paint only pictures of certain kinds and even prescribed the colors to be used, and to regulate sculptors in making statues; they censored speakers, meetings, writings, and study; they allowed some arts and sciences, prohibited others; how to walk, how to enter a room, what to wear, salutations, courtship, postures, there was nothing too minute to be controlled. The consequence was that a man's life was filled up with ceremonies, rites, and formalities, and this was true for him even while he was at work. A number of those customs and ceremonies, as thus made compulsory over the centuries, continue in practice now, in the example of our having Patron Saints, and they are therefore among the origins of our Ritual and symbols.

When Masonic books first began to be published in any number at about 1800 A. D. and until professional Masonic historical scholarship became established at the end of that same Century, a majority of the writers were faced with a dilemma. They pictured the early Operative Freemasons as having been nothing more than stonemasons and day-laborers; they construed Speculative Freemasonry as being something almost akin to a religion, at the very least as a philosophy - they believed that there is much religious mysticism in it. How, then, could this Speculative Freemasonry have grown out of Operative? A number of writers cut this gordian knot by boldly bringing in an outside origin which was some form of religion or philosophy and which, they said, had settled itself down in the old Craft, and taken it over, and had then produced Speculative Freemasonry.

It is impossible to accept such theories now after our own scholarship has learned so much about Operative Freemasonry which was not known in the Nineteenth Century. For one thing the problem no longer exists. The Operative Craft was filled with religiousness and with religious or quasi-religious rites and ceremonies because of the Ordinances of Religion; every other craft or gild also was filled with them for the same reason - even the black-smiths had old traditions and legends about King Solomon, and the carpenters had legends about Jesus of Nazareth. For another thing Freemasons never adopted any outside religion or secret cult or philosophy for the same reason; the Ordinances of Religion made it impossible, because if a Mason had taken up with astrology, or alchemy, or Kabbalism, or any other such esoteric faith or occultism he would have been arrested, tortured, and burned at the stake. When Freemasons were at work on a cathedral no priest sat in Lodge with them; but for all that, Church rules dictated most of the details of carvings, statuary, pictures, stained glass, altars, ambulatories, chapels, and it would have been impossible for the Freemasons to practice any secret cult inside their Lodges without discovery or to have embodied its ideas or symbols in the buildings; moreover the Freemasons themselves had no desire for heretical cults because they themselves were Christian men.

If this be true how were the Freemasons able to originate something new, something undreamed of before, something startlingly unlike anything else thought or believed in the Middle Ages, truths that had not been seen, and were not known in other crafts or fraternities, and yet so big, and so vital, and so powerful that Freemasonry alone has survived out of the many Medieval fraternities, and not only survived but also has grown, and increased in power, and become world-wide! It is because the truths they found were not religious or theological, nor, as the word was understood in that period, philosophical, but belonged to a different category, and stood as far apart from religion or theology as mathematics does. This may be taken as the most important of the many facts about Freemasonry and religion, that even in the period when the Fraternity was what we should now describe as very religious, it itself was not a religion; and its many religious ceremonies and observances were not peculiar to it but were the same as were enforced on every craft or fraternity by the Ordinances of Religion.

We Americans almost never see or take part in rites and ceremonies except in church, and we have therefore fallen into the habit of thinking of ritual as in some sense or to some degree a religious form; a Medieval man could not have understood such an idea because he used rites and ceremonies everywhere and every day - a farmer could not plow a field or cut his harvest or slaughter the pig without due rites, a working man in shops and factories made a ceremony out of reporting to work in the morning; they saw in ritual no necessary connection with religion. Of what worth are rites when thus used so universally? Perhaps the truest answer ever given to that question was given by Confucius, certainly the most successful answer.

Confucius was unique among the founders of religions in that where the others told men what they must believe he told them what they must do, and refused to tell them what to believe. He did not found a new religion or a new theology, organized no church, had students but neither disciples nor apostles, and sent out no missionaries; he did not even go about preaching or speaking. All he did was to write a few books, chief among them being The Book of Poetry (songs and music), The Book of History, and The Book of Rites; he did not even originate the larger part of the contents of these books but compiled them out of yet older writings, and he wrote them not to become a Bible or in any sense a collection of sacred writings but to be used as texts by his students; yet through their plain, simple, sincere pages he became the teacher, exemplar, and shaper of the most populous community in the world for 2500 years! What is even more remarkable in the eyes of us Westerners is that in his writings that which did most to shape and guide some billions of men and women after him were the rites which he recommended to his people; it is remarkable in our eyes because we neither make much use of rites nor believe much in their efficacy. What was Confucius' secret? He saw that there is a right way to do anything; find that right way, and then do it, and do it the right way each and every time you do it! There is a right way to greet a friend, to enter a room, to sit in a chair, to eat at table, to address parents or to address children, etc., etc. through hundreds of other acts or occasions which recur continually. It is this "right way to do a thing" which is the secret of our own Ritual; when a Candidate is received at the Inner Door, when he takes his Obligation, when a Mason enters the Lodge, when the Master opens the Lodge, and so on through some 200 occasions or moments always there is a right way to do it, and it is for that reason that it is done the same way each time. It is not to say that the Freemasons learned the secrets of Ritual from Confucius; they had never heard of him; rather it is to say something to ourselves in order to cure ourselves of taking a Ritual lightly, or of thinking of it as a formality; the extraordinarily long history of Confucianism makes it impossible for any man to doubt either the meaning or power of a true and sound ritual. And if any Mason has the impression that our own Ritual is a statement or teaching of religion it is either because he has missed the weight and power of the ritual itself, or because he has never examined it closely. It is neither a religious ritual nor a ritual of religion, but is wholly and solely a craft ritual.

If the phrase just used is clearly and completely understood it gives at one stroke the connection between Freemasonry and religion: there is none; that is to say, there is no more connection than between Freemasonry and science, or education, or politics, or language. It neither works for religion, nor works against it. It began as a craft, and therefore the whole subject of religion was irrelevant to it. This is an obvious fact about the building craft, because in the nature of things it is wholly separate and apart from theology, for there can be no Roman Catholic geometry, or Protestant engineering, or Mohammedan logic. It is equally true of modern Speculative Freemasonry because its Tenets, its Landmarks, its Brotherhood and Fraternalism and Charity are self-same in every country and are nowhere altered by either religion or politics.

A Freemason in the year 1200 A. D. saw this as clearly as we do, therefore while he thought of himself as a Catholic it did not occur to him to think of his art or craft as having anything to do with Catholicism. A man can have a religion; an art cannot. As long as Catholicism was the only religion he knew, as long as the civil and ecclesiastical laws compelled him to be a Catholic and threatened to hang him or burn him if he was not, he was a Catholic. After the Reformation had abolished those laws and had driven Catholicism out of the country, he was a member of the Church of England. By the time the first Grand Lodge was set up he began to be free to belong to any church or denomination. But his being a Catholic, or an Anglican, or a Methodist, or a Presbyterian concerned him only in his private capacity as a man, and he knew that it made no difference to his art of architecture, or to the fraternizing of men in the Craft, because the Craft always has been non-theological. And now, with Freemasonry having become world-wide he has a larger liberty still, for he not only can belong to any denomination of his choice but can belong to any religion of his choice.

One of the most inexplicable facts in the many centuries of the history of Freemasonry was the Roman Catholic church's abrupt, unheralded, and unwarranted condemnation of it when in 1738 A. D. the Pope Clement XII issued a Bull to excommunicate Masons. He condemned the Craft bitterly, as have also a number of Popes since, especially Leo XIII who issued Bulls and Encyclicals against it, and was an Anti-Mason almost more than he was a Pope. Historians have not yet discovered why Clement took the action he did in 1738 A. D., not even Roman Catholic historians, and especially after his church and the Fraternity had been so closely associated over so many centuries; he gave no sound reason because he had none, but he was very old and almost senile and spoke with a most un-Christian bitterness, and it is thought that he took the step because of a quarrel he had had. Once he had taken the step it was irrevocable, on the theory that the Pope is infallible, and the prohibition continues. It has accomplished no good purpose; and since in the Eighteenth Century thousands of Masons were Catholics - in Ireland there were so many that some Lodges were composed wholly of priests - it is difficult to guess why they never discovered the Fraternity to be as evil, and as atheistic, and as corrupt as Leo XIII declared it to be. If there was a quarrel it was on one side only; regular Grand Lodges do not exclude Catholics from membership; consistent Catholics could not petition for membership after their Popes have forbidden it, but the prohibiting rules are Catholic and not Masonic.

The first of the charges of a Freemason, on page 50 of the first edition of the Book of Constitutions makes this abundantly clear, because it is the Constitutional law which both Lodges and Masons must obey. It is entitled "Concerning God and Religion":

"A Mason is obliged, by his Tenure, to obey the moral Law; and if he rightly understands the Art, he will never be a stupid Atheist, nor an irreligious Libertine. But though in Ancient Times Masons were charged in every Country to be of the Religion of that Country, or Nation, whatever it was. Yet it is now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that Religion in which all Men agree, leaving their particular opinions to themselves, that is, to be good Men and true, or Men of Honor and Honesty, by whatever Denominations or Persuasions they may be distinguished; whereby Masonry becomes the Center of Union, and the Means of conciliating true Friendship among Persons that must have remained at a perpetual Distance."

[Postulare42]

That is a wonderful essay, Thomas.

Thanks for sharing it.