Once a Muslim

[bupanishad2012]

Due to problems with the Trinity doctrine, I once spent 3 years as a Muslim (before 9-11). That was NOT the answer! It's difficult, maybe impossible, to return to the doctrine of presbyter Arius, but it is an exciting possibility.

[dark_knight]

There are points why either Islam or (Rabbinic) Judaism are not answers, though they are monotheist, like true Christianity (which was defended by Arius). I hope that you will study the Scriptures, this forum and your heart and, if God wills, find your home in the ACC.

[Danage]

For three months (October - December 2005) I considered Islam as a viable option for, during those three months, I considered Jesus as Messiah but not Son of G-d. If I had known that the Arian Church survived the Roman Catholic and Papist persecutions I would have seriously considered Arian Christianity over Judaism, which I considered above all. The reason for ultimately discarding Islam as an option was that I could not accept Muhammed (peace be upon him) as a Prophet.

[LeviathanNI]

For three months (October - December 2005) I considered Islam as a viable option for, during those three months, I considered Jesus as Messiah but not Son of G-d. If I had known that the Arian Church survived the Roman Catholic and Papist persecutions I would have seriously considered Arian Christianity over Judaism, which I considered above all. The reason for ultimately discarding Islam as an option was that I could not accept Muhammed (peace be upon him) as a Prophet.


I think that is something we will hear a lot over the coming years.. and it is something we can slowly, but surely work on. Like you I looked into Judaism and Islam as possibles, and also like you, ultimately rejected them.

Our Church is, in my eyes, a sleeping giant and will slowly start to gain public recognition. Of course, that can be a double edged sword, for as it becomes more known, it will be open to more attack, especially from those who would feel threatened by our Church. This is why I intend to learn as much as I can, so that when the time comes, I can give a true and proper account of ourselves, and explain what we are, who we are, and why we are. At the minute, all I can do is briefly explain what we are, and that it feels right in my heart, and a contentment akin to like I have 'come home'.. but people want and need more than that.

[Danage]

I have not rejected Judaism ultimately. I still have Jewish beliefs, especially in concert with the Jewish Book of Revelation, but Judaism as an option is waning and rising at certain times, depending on the circumstances and situation I am in, and which argument sways me more. The chances are generally: Judaism 30%, Messianic Judaism 20%, Arian Catholicism 20%, Protestantism 20%, Zoroastrianism 10%. It could go any way, but Christianity and Judeo-Christianity as a whole holds 60% of the viable options in my belief system, with Judaism swaying me half a much as Christianity.

Sorry about the complexity.

[RabbiBarry]

I have not rejected Judaism ultimately. I still have Jewish beliefs, especially in concert with the Jewish Book of Revelation, but Judaism as an option is waning and rising at certain times, depending on the circumstances and situation I am in, and which argument sways me more. The chances are generally: Judaism 30%, Messianic Judaism 20%, Arian Catholicism 20%, Protestantism 20%, Zoroastrianism 10%. It could go any way, but Christianity and Judeo-Christianity as a whole holds 60% of the viable options in my belief system, with Judaism swaying me half a much as Christianity.

Sorry about the complexity.

If you have thought this deeply at 18, you are doing fine. I would suggest that there is one element that needs to be increased. Abraham heard a Voice. The early Church expressed the importance of the Voice in John 10. The great Luthern minister, Dietrich Bonhoffer, said: If you do not hear the Voice of G-d, go to your church and demand to hear his Voice, then wait there patiently as long as it takes until He speaks to you. I agree with him. I demanded that the Voice speak to me at 18. It took a week of waiting, but He spoke. He has been speaking ever since, now 40 years. You are doing well Danage. I am truly impressed.

[dark_knight]

I have not rejected Judaism ultimately. I still have Jewish beliefs, especially in concert with the Jewish Book of Revelation, but Judaism as an option is waning and rising at certain times, depending on the circumstances and situation I am in, and which argument sways me more. The chances are generally: Judaism 30%, Messianic Judaism 20%, Arian Catholicism 20%, Protestantism 20%, Zoroastrianism 10%. It could go any way, but Christianity and Judeo-Christianity as a whole holds 60% of the viable options in my belief system, with Judaism swaying me half a much as Christianity.

Sorry about the complexity.

You're indeed mature for your age. You seem to be true seeker! What I want to suggest to you, is to elevate the thirst for the Truth inside you - and I think you have. All the religions you mentioned have their share of the truth, but ultimately not all of them can be right - right? There either is literal hell, or there is not. It is not good to cherish black'n'white cosmology in many issues, but sometimes we must seek the literal truth.
Your case is, in my view, either Jesus was Messiah, or he was not. Study all the pro's and con's carefully and make up your mind on this, I suggest. Take your time and do not hesitate to ask thoughts from any of us.

-Henrik

[RabbiBarry]

Henrik wrote to you, Danage: Your case is, in my view, either Jesus was Messiah, or he was not. Study all the pro's and con's carefully and make up your mind on this, I suggest. Take your time and do not hesitate to ask thoughts from any of us.

The question is more complex. The question is:

Was Yeshua the Meshiach? I think you already believe that he was.
Was he the Meshiach of David? I think that there are many prophecies in scripture relating to David that Yeshua did not fulfill.
Was he the Meshiach of Melchizedek? I think that those prophecies have all been fulfilled by Yeshua.
How do I deal with the question of the Torah, do I obey it or not? If you are a Hebrew in any part of your blood, then you are required to keep the Torah and to believe in the only Jewish sect that believes in Yeshua, the Nasoreans. If you have no Hebrew blood, then you are required to keep the Noachide laws, and should be an Arian Christian.
If you do not believe in any of these ideas, Zoroastrianism is still a possibility.

[dark_knight]

Was Yeshua the Meshiach? I think you already believe that he was.
Was he the Meshiach of David? I think that there are many prophecies in scripture relating to David that Yeshua did not fulfill.

My argument on this is, that Yeshua will fullfill them in the future Era, when he has descended back to this Earth to rule with his Saints.

[RabbiBarry]

My argument on this is, that Yeshua will fullfill them in the future Era, when he has descended back to this Earth to rule with his Saints.

The Apostles, the Fathers of the Church, the Saints of the last 2000 years have been waiting for this event. I just think we got it wrong. Yeshua believed that he would return within a generation of his rising. Never happened. Those who believe it will have no basis or hope for their belief. On the otherhand, if Yeshua was the Meshiach of Melchizedek, he does not have to return to fulfill his mission. It is fulfilled. He is the High Priest of Heaven. Mission accomplished.

[Danage]

It is a question of weather Yeshuah/Jesus is Messiah and weather the Book of Revelation was Jewish (and written before 70 C.E., or before the Common Era), or weather it is Christian and written after 70 C.E.

[David Kone]

This is an interesting line of inquiry. I have decided to keep an open mind for now. There are inconsistencies in the New Testament. Perhaps the Gospel stories were written to conform to a certain template that existed in the minds of the writers. The effort to prove that Jesus was descended from David is awkward especially considering that the parentage of Joseph is then discounted by the virgin birth. In my estimation, Jesus seems to have exhibited the qualities of a high priest, the traits of an ideal king, and those of a true prophet. The Davidic Kings being anointed as God's representatives by the prophets and would have similar traits. The question is who anointed Jesus and when. I would assume that the line of David by that time had many descendants. Just being a descendent was not enough to become King of the Holy Kingdom. Did John anoint him? Did John represent that ancient priesthood which was associated with Melkezadik?

[RabbiBarry]

[QUOTE=David Kone;689] The question is who anointed Jesus and when.

Mary ha Magdalah when she poured the nard on him. It was not just on his feet but head and hands as well.

Did John anoint him?

John baptized him.

Did John represent that ancient priesthood which was associated with Melkezadik?

No. Zechariah as the Gospel of Mary alludes was a High Priest of the either the line of Boethus or of Onias IV. John became the High Priest after him. The Essene/Nasorean view is and was that the Yachad was the Temple and so he officiated in that Temple; however, there is evidence that Ya'akov ha Tzaddik entered the Dabir or HOly of HOlies on Yom Kippur in 62 CE. Also there is clear evidence from Hegissipus and Josephus that he spent much time in the Holy Place which he could only do if he were recognized as a High Priest.

I really, really wish that you would participate as at least a lurker in some of the major theological lists like The Jesus Dynasty group on Yahoo.

[David Kone]

Mary ha Magdalah when she poured the nard on him. It was not just on his feet but head and hands as well.

Thought you might mention this. Again, too much for my feeble brain to process. Just will have to pray on it.

[Danage]

"Again, too much for my feeble brain to process"

Don't put yourself down. It is not good to be low in self confidence and self esteem. You know things the Rabbi doesn't I am sure. Be confident in something, and you will succeed in life.

"The great Lutheran minister, Dietrich Bonhoffer, said: If you do not hear the Voice of G-d, go to your church and demand to hear his Voice, then wait there patiently as long as it takes until He speaks to you. I agree with him. I demanded that the Voice speak to me at 18. It took a week of waiting, but He spoke. He has been speaking ever since, now 40 years. You are doing well Danage. I am truly impressed."

Thank you. The problem of going to a Christian church is that I asociate it with persecution and oppression and hence do not feel entirely confortable in a Christian (Trinitarian) church. The persecution of the churches and Judaism (by order of the Papacy) is the persecution I refer to. The oppression is the oppressed beliefs I am being forced to renounce because of my mother breaking my human rights (right to worship as I will).

My mother goes for the guilt trip, saying that she feels insulted that I don't believe as she does, and trying to get me to renounce the beliefs that I hold, and held. She has also said if I dared not to convert to Protestantism or Anglicanism (in other words if I convert to any denomination or religion which she does not agree with) then not only am I to be chucked out, but renounced as her son. However, I do support her in light of what my father says to her, which isn't very nice 90% of the time.

[RabbiBarry]

Thank you. The problem of going to a Christian church is that I asociate it with persecution and oppression and hence do not feel entirely confortable in a Christian (Trinitarian) church. The persecution of the churches and Judaism (by order of the Papacy) is the persecution I refer to. The oppression is the oppressed beliefs I am being forced to renounce because of my mother breaking my human rights (right to worship as I will).

So go to a Mosque or a Synagogue or field. G-d is everywhere. The Voice is everywhere. Actually, the Voice finds it easiest to speak to me in the bathtub.

My mother goes for the guilt trip, saying that she feels insulted that I don't believe as she does, and trying to get me to renounce the beliefs that I hold, and held.

She is just worried about you.

She has also said if I dared not to convert to Protestantism or Anglicanism (in other words if I convert to any denomination or religion which she does not agree with) then not only am I to be chucked out, but renounced as her son.

Jewish Orthodox families actually hold a funeral.

However, I do support her in light of what my father says to her, which isn't very nice 90% of the time.[/QUOTE]

[Danage]

"Jewish Orthodox families actually hold a funeral."
My mother is a Methodist.

Your point of go somewhere else is valid, but going to a Mosque or Synagogue is difficult due to the nearest mosques and synagogues being in Hereford and Birmingham, several miles away. However, I will consider going somewhere to pray to G-d.

[Jesus John]

"Jewish Orthodox families actually hold a funeral."
My mother is a Methodist.

Your point of go somewhere else is valid, but going to a Mosque or Synagogue is difficult due to the nearest mosques and synagogues being in Hereford and Birmingham, several miles away. However, I will consider going somewhere to pray to G-d.

Dear Danage,

I hope and wish with my all heart to solve your problems with your mother. I agree my brother RabbiBarry with his advice to you to go anywhere. I can say that looking to the sky, to the mountain, to the moon, to the sun or to a documentary film can also relax you and can make you hear God. If you will you can hear him, you can hear him in a song, for example I heared him yesterday in the song "Wonderful life" of Black. It seems crazy but I can hear and think him, I thank God several time for giving this wonderful gift for me.

"You will not become a real faithfull slave if you dont wish the same thing to your faithfull brother what you are wishing for"
Muhammad (Peace be upon him)

I hope and wish for you the same gift (Amen)

With Love,

Oguzhan

[Danage]

Thank you both for your insight. I will try to allow G-d to communicate with me.

[David Kone]

Dear Danage,

Putting myself down is a preparation to being lifted up. I make my living repairing very complicated modern industrial machines for which I have considerable training and education. However solving problems is an art. Those things I think I know are just as likely get in my way as those which I do know. Sometimes we can not see because of what we think is true. I always pray before dealing with the complex challenges of my job because I know most often that I really have no clue.

When I was 17 I spent a couple of weeks in constant and anguished prayer becuse I really wanted to be given wisdom. Many times looking back I realized that that was the most foolish thing I could have ever done. Some forty years plus I am still the same fool. Rabbi Barry is truly gifted. I am not shamed by his knowledge on the contrary I am amazed and I laugh with joy that we should even be having these conversations.

[Yochanan]

During all my life - and being born jewish begining my studies at two years old -, I have considered all what is monotheist and out of imagery worship deep important. I had the luck of to have a teacher (a Rav or Rabby ('y' means 'mine')) that allways has opened my eyes for that. As a jewish born - and more than this -, I can say that has been more easy for a Jew enter in Islam than into Christianity and the numbers, in the past, shows what I am saying. Lots of jews had living together and inner Islamic communities making the same prayers and keeping also the jewish ones. Of course that we, Sfarads, never have pronunciated the name of Muhamad at the end of the Muslim prays and they never had noticed that hahahaha it is our practise that make us seems to pronounce something and never say it.
If any time I have been atracted to Islamic has been because of the Sufi richness: philosophicaly, the way of life, the arts, the music and much more.
Of course that the first time that I gave atention to Christianism has been because of JW (students of Bible) but from them - I was 11 years old -, I have discovered the Valdenses. So, I have went to the Basc side of France (the south) to became aware of they story, History and conceptions. There I new about Arius and much more that this Forum is today exposing and (this is the reason of this my post) I think to be very important also to observe this few but yet existent Valdenses. Few, because a lot of them have been converted to JW.

[Hermes]

Of course that the first time that I gave atention to Christianism has been because of JW (students of Bible) but from them - I was 11 years old -, I have discovered the Valdenses. So, I have went to the Basc side of France (the south) to became aware of they story, History and conceptions. There I new about Arius and much more that this Forum is today exposing and (this is the reason of this my post) I think to be very important also to observe this few but yet existent Valdenses. Few, because a lot of them have been converted to JW.

Could you elaborate on what you found out? About the the Valdenses, etc? That sounds pretty interesting since I saw somewhere that the Valdenses were condemned of Arianism in the Middle Ages. Many joined with the Calvinists in the Reformation centuries later though.

[Yochanan]

I am sorry because I have not much time for the Forum actualy once that at the universities have begun the second semester of masters and doctorships. Anyway and about Valdenses, it is good no generalize when we are speack about a country as the Basc one. This people have no comparation with Europe in general and with latin countries in particular. Even the language they speack, that the sound looks is like the same as Portuguese, are really far away from all and yet remains a mistery its origins. The sames happens with the personality structure of this people that ocupies a vast territory from North Spain and South of France.
The base of Basc Valdenses Christianity is that they oposed to be classified as Christians not only because of they are against to the trinity of God but, above at all, they are against the concept of papacy in favor of a group of elders head masters but in a sence of organization more than in a sence of a spiritual dominatores or the owners of the truth. Al happens like a jewish system based in "synagogues", meeting rooms, where the elders observe the good conduct of the studies and the practises that has nothing to be with any kind of ritual. The so called communion is a normal but frugal meal where the group of people (church) at the end divides the bread and the wine - few wine mixed with water.
The Bible has more books and the concept of apocryphus has the meaning of secrets that goes from a normal level to a high one.
Much more I could say about it but the best is you try, if you have time and interest, in go deeper with this.
Anyway, when JW appeared at Iberia and South of France lots of them have been converted because they was unanimous saying that the way of JW remember them as they was before.
This aspect is not unique at Iberia. For instance, Portugal is a very small country that normaly people things that the portuguese are deep catholic what is deep false. In reality, the portuguese people practises a very strange multi milenar celtic magic religion where the Catholic saints - lots of them are not more than old gods as Saint Filomena -, feets they proposal. The same way they deeply use the Catholic mess that they believe to be very important for they own magical religion proposes, like they use, the graveyards at the midnight and much more. But at south center of Portugal the influence is strongly visigothic and they don't care about anything that appears or are considered Catholic. They don't speack about God and it is very dificult to define they own religion because is deep secret.
This varieties, and much more, in a so small country it are a good example to look to the bascs in a deep special way once that them also have they own way out of all European conception.
For now is all. Maybe, next mont I will have more free time, let us see.

[Danage]

Could you elaborate on what you found out? About the the Valdenses, etc? That sounds pretty interesting since I saw somewhere that the Valdenses were condemned of Arianism in the Middle Ages. Many joined with the Calvinists in the Reformation centuries later though.

The Waldenses (they resided in the Alps) and Albigenses (they resided in the Carpathians) were the original apostolic Christian Church, and they were Arian/Biblical Unitarian. They were heavily persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church (Waldenses) and the Eastern Roman Empire and Eastern Christian Orthodox Church (Albigenses).

During the Reformation contact was made between the Protestants and the Waldenses, and so some of the Waldenses turned traitor and converted to the Trinitarian Protestant movement.

[Explorer]

Some people said that it is not 100% sure if Arius believed that Jesus was the Archangel Michael before his birth. I wonder if the Arian Catholic Forum do believe that Jesus pre-existed as an Archangel? I know that there are several Biblical Unitarian groups who do not hold this believe.
Any comment?

[Danage]

Some people said that it is not 100% sure if Arius believed that Jesus was the Archangel Michael before his birth. I wonder if the Arian Catholic Forum do believe that Jesus pre-existed as an Archangel?

We Arian Catholic do view Christ as being pre-existent, just as Arius almost certainly was, but if he didn't then it is too late to change the name of the theology to something else. Arianism is synonymous with Biblical Unitarianism and the pre-existence of Christ as an Archangel, backed up by the Septuagint Isaiah 9:6.

I know that there are several Biblical Unitarian groups who do not hold this believe.
Any comment?

I am aware of such groups, such as Church of G-d, General Conference, and others. The Christadelphians, who will deny the label Biblical Unitarian, are Biblical Unitarians who deny the pre-existence of Christ, which I believe is an undeniable Truth.

[Explorer]

We Arian Catholic do view Christ as being pre-existent, just as Arius almost certainly was, but if he didn't then it is too late to change the name of the theology to something else. Arianism is synonymous with Biblical Unitarianism and the pre-existence of Christ as an Archangel, backed up by the Septuagint Isaiah 9:6.



I am aware of such groups, such as Church of G-d, General Conference, and others. The Christadelphians, who will deny the label Biblical Unitarian, are Biblical Unitarians who deny the pre-existence of Christ, which I believe is an undeniable Truth.

Thanks for your reply. I believe that both BU groups have their valid arguments. I hope that God would grant His grace to both BU groups so that both could work together to fight against the true enemy, namely the Trinitarian cult.

[Danage]

Thanks for your reply. I believe that both BU groups have their valid arguments. I hope that God would grant His grace to both BU groups so that both could work together to fight against the true enemy, namely the Trinitarian cult.

You're welcome. I too pray that the various Biblical Unitarian and Arian (although Arianism is Biblical Unitarianism that includes the belief in the pre-existence of Christ). Obviously, if we all united and agreed on doctrine, the greater our united voice, but, as with the Trinitarian and Binitarian (after Herbert W. Armstrong, Pastor General of Worldwide Church of G-d, died and several churches split off from it) churches, we are as disunited as ever.

[Danage]

We Arian Catholic do view Christ as being pre-existent, just as Arius almost certainly was

Sorry, that is meant to say 'We Arian Catholics do view Christ as being pre-existent, just as Arius almost certainly believed'.

[Danage]

You're welcome. I too pray that the various Biblical Unitarian and Arian (although Arianism is Biblical Unitarianism that includes the belief in the pre-existence of Christ)...

...can work together to spread the true Gospel of the Kingdom of God and spread apostolicity and confuse the apostates to the point that they have to agree with us about the relationship between God the Father and the Son of God (whose very title, while not unique (those of the Angelic Hierarchy are all the children of God (Psalm 82:6)), proves that Christ is not God (otherwise he would be called God the Son, for how can 'God the Son' be a Son of God? Simply he cannot be God's own Son if he is God as well)).