Non-trinitarian groups

[dark_knight]

What is the official affiliation of the ACC to the other non-trinitarian churches and sects, i.e the Bible Bible Students, JW's, Christadelphians, Biblical Unitarians, Church of God-Abrahamic Faith, Armstrongians etc. ?
Could there be a subforum for "low-church" non-trinitarianism in the ACC affiliations? I see that Church has a bit of respect (or something) for Apostolic Churches them being a vehicle of Apostolic Succesion and I see the value of that. But what about the value of Protestantism, other Sabbath-keepers and "protestant-style" Non-Trinitarians as a vehicle of the aspects of Truth and spread of Bibles and Biblical knowledge?

What is Church's view to Martin Luther, Evangelic Lutheranisim and Lutheran Catholism?

More questions,

What is the basis of Church's orthodoxy, how is it decided and what part does the Scriptures play in it?

I refer to a discussion with friend of mine, Lutheran priest, who does not believe very much in Bible - I asked him what is the reason, basis and standard of his Christianity - By what does he measure what is Christian or not, if he does not believe Bible is the Word of God.

[Danage]

What are the Non-Trinitarian Churches, apart from Arian Catholicism?

[dark_knight]

I provided a clue here, but I'll give now a more thorough explantion.

What is the official affiliation of the ACC to the other non-trinitarian churches and sects, i.e the Bible Bible Students, JW's, Christadelphians, Biblical Unitarians, Church of God-Abrahamic Faith, Armstrongians etc. ?


Following could be counted being Non-Trinitarian Churches, sects, groups or movements (my own research - so it may not include all):

+ These are Radical Unitarians who believe that the Father is the Only God and deny Christ's pre-existence:

- Church of God General Conference (Abrahamic Faith), and their affiliate or related groups, such as Sir Anthony Buzzard's Restoration Fellowship

- Biblical Unitarians (Spirit & Truth Fellowship international)

- Christadelphians

- Socinians

- Ebionites and many other Messianic Jews groups



- Somewhere between these and following and New Age, there are various Unitarian Universalists


+ Following fall into Unitarian category, but have somewhat Arian Christology, by which I mean that they accept the pre-existence of Christ but deny that he is the God.

- Various Bible Students groups and movements, who consider Pastor Charles Taze Russell as "that faithful and discreet servant"

- The Jehovah's Witnesses (who have common background with the latter)

- There are numerous extremely small groups falling into this category, which you can with little effort google up. Most are beside being 'Arian', sabbath keepers and/or sanctificators of the Divine Name (YHWH). Some of these even have RC background, like Iglesia de Christo - I don't advertise them more than this here, since I'm still waiting the official ACC view on these...

+ Various ex-Worldwide Church of God splintergroups, based on the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong are anti-trinitarians who believe that God is a Family, compromising currently from two Beings, Father and Son, thus being binitarians

+ There are some Seventh Day Adventist and other Sabbath keepers, who are reluctant to utter the word 'Trinity' or the creeds of Christendom, but still in rather ackwardly speak about 'divinity of Christ' and him being 'both Divine and Man'. Most notable of these are the SDA Reformation movement

+ There is also these Oneness Pentecostals, Branhamians, Jesus only movement and like, who have Modalist Theology, i.e there are not three persons in the Godhead, but One Person, which has 'disguised' himself or manifested in different forms, thus they believe Jesus is God, same person that Father is

Personally, I consider the two first categories (Radical Unitarians and those with Arian Christology) I provided, brethren and have good relations with many of them. That's why I hope to know what ACC says about that...

-Henrik

P.S Input 'nontrinitarianism' in Wikipedia - good place to start with

[Explorer]

Dear all,
I am new to this forum and I found the ACC and ACTS from the wikipedia. I am interested to ask if there is a possibility of a unification of all Unitarian Christian groups?
With the aid of modern technologies such as internet, I believe that it is much easier for christians nowadays to realise the error of the trinitarian doctrine. Unfortunately, the support for these 'lost unitarian christians' is still lacking. At the city I am living in, at the south of England, I see one JWs' Kingdom Hall, one Christadelphian Ecclesia and one Unitarian Universalist Church. But they are in general not campatible with each others depite holding the same monotheistic christian doctrine.
I am also interested to ask if there is any ACC Church at the South of England?
Many thanks.

[yngwie7]

i think it would be great if non-trinitarian groups could form some kind of loose organization based on the Apostles creed and the ten commandments.

God bless you

[dark_knight]

God willing (and it seems he will!),
we're haveing an interdenominational non-trinitarian conference next summer here in Finland. It is also international and in English. Please contact me, if you're interested. Accomodation is by our courtesy in a camp-like, Christian atmosphere, and God willing, catering also.

-Henrik

[Danage]

Unifying any sects into one is difficult, especially for the Trinitarian Churches (Roman Catholicism vs. Eastern Orthodox Christianity vs. Oriental Orthodox Christianity vs. Protestantism vs. Free Trinitarian Churches). This will also be the case with non-Trinitarian Churches. There are too many differences, and thus it may be too difficult.

[yngwie7]

Unifying any sects into one is difficult, especially for the Trinitarian Churches (Roman Catholicism vs. Eastern Orthodox Christianity vs. Oriental Orthodox Christianity vs. Protestantism vs. Free Trinitarian Churches). This will also be the case with non-Trinitarian Churches. There are too many differences, and thus it may be too difficult.

Notice how I said "loose organization." All those groups have one thing common though: that all non-trinitarians are heretics or cults.

God bless you

[yngwie7]

God willing (and it seems he will!),
we're haveing an interdenominational non-trinitarian conference next summer here in Finland. It is also international and in English. Please contact me, if you're interested. Accomodation is by our courtesy in a camp-like, Christian atmosphere, and God willing, catering also.

-Henrik

I am definately interested. I don't know if I'll be able to go to Finland, but I would like to have any information that you could give me.

God bless you

[Danage]

Sorry. I didn't take into account the 'loose' bit.

A loose organisation would perhaps be more viable, but setting it up is a different matter. The internet is OK, but what would the organisation do and what would it be called? Would it spread non-trinitarian beliefs?

[Explorer]

I think the term non-trinitarian is too loose, polytheism is also non-trinitarian. May be just 'Unitarian'? The common belief would be that:

1 Corintians 8:6
there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

[dark_knight]

You're right Explorer, but considering the context, that is, this is Arian forum and I have listed only those non-trinitarians which have foundation in Biblical Christianity. I think that 'non-trinitarian christians' is fine, let's include the christian...

[Danage]

Something I just discovered - the word 'Unitarian' includes the word 'Arian'. Is this intentional?

[dark_knight]

No Dan, but just a nice coincindence. I've noticed that too.

[Danage]

The word 'Trinitarian' also includes the word 'Arian' in it as well. I must admit, it is a strange coincidence.

[dark_knight]

...with other non-trinitarians, in this case Christadelphian bro.Duncan Heaster
may be read at http://www.carelinks.net/care/finland2411.htm

[Jesus John]

The word 'Trinitarian' also includes the word 'Arian' in it as well. I must admit, it is a strange coincidence.

Dear Dan,

Let me to say my thoughts about Arius (Peace be upon him) and Arianism. I believe that Arius died with a faith like Abraham (Peace be upon him) was. Arius had a faith on Jesus (Peace be upon him) that he was a human and a chosen messenger of God and wasnt a son (divine or physical) of God. He defended the faith on only one God and spread his thoughts where he was on duty. He was excommunicationed from the Nicaea Council defending these thoughts. We know that the council were made against him and his helpers. Because the Roman Catholic church believed on the trinity. This thoughts were dangerous for them. But they couldnt see that Arius and his helpers were the true Christians as in its real meaning. The Roman catholic church was effected and corrupted in faith by time. The Christianity which is presented in the world now isnt the true faith which Jesus told. I read things about Arius but I couldnt see anything that he believed on Jesus that he was a divine part of God. What is the different of saying that God is three (God, his son and holy spirit) or Jesus is a divine part of God and giving features which only belongs to God? Doesnt this believe give commons to God?

However, I dont believe that Arius is still understood good by this forum users or by the philosophy which is been presented as Arianism.

Love,

Oguzhan

[dark_knight]

You said, "However, I dont believe that Arius is still understood good by this forum users or by the philosophy which is been presented as Arianism."

Where do your extensive knowledge on Arianism stem from? Why don't you teach us the true Arianism then?

[brotherkev]

True, it would be interesting, but I seriously doubt that a JW would consider fellowship with a bibleical unitarian...and most know that Unitarian-universalists are in a lot of ways not even christians

so it's a nice thought for an ecumenical fellowship, but it aint gonna happen..

[Danage]

It is true that it would be extremely difficult, but consider that the Interfaith Council of the UK was set up to encourage inter-faith relations. Perhaps what is needed is an Interfaith Council for Arians, perhaps as part of the UK Council or as an independent council.

[brotherkev]

There is a biblical unitarian fairly close to me (10 minute drive) , so we can fellowship, I will try to relay information and see what I can share here..

There is also a big group of Messianic Jews & Gentiles, about 15 minutes away

so a fellowship for me is quite doable

[brotherkev]

It is true that it would be extremely difficult, but consider that the Interfaith Council of the UK was set up to encourage inter-faith relations. Perhaps what is needed is an Interfaith Council for Arians, perhaps as part of the UK Council or as an independent council.

I hope that the path to Ecumenicism isn't thought of here, since with an ecumenical/inter-faith group.. I am VERY leary of a weakening of core beliefs and a 'watering down' of the ways to satisfy what others see..

Being a Fundamentalist, I am very picky who I fellowship with...so I will watch this 'inter-faith council' idea.. Since the RCC has had several councils with Evangelicals, Lutherans, Episcopalians, etc, and I see an ever weakening of beleifs as the others get drawn closer to the RCC yoke..

I just don't want us to be drawn into the same idea...

[LeviathanNI]

That is one of the biggest problems of religion today.. they spread themselves so thin, water themselves down so much, that the core of beliefs become non existant, or something refered to without much thought. A strong core is something that must be a constant, and the thing that others should try an adapt to, not the other way round.

[Andreas]

God willing (and it seems he will!),
we're haveing an interdenominational non-trinitarian conference next summer here in Finland. It is also international and in English. Please contact me, if you're interested. Accomodation is by our courtesy in a camp-like, Christian atmosphere, and God willing, catering also.

-Henrik


Dear Henrik, Please send me more information about this meeting in Finland. It is very important for us all as Christian of apostolic traditions.
Andreas

[dark_knight]

This meeting will be held, as long as the Archbishop is coming. Alas, the original plans have undercone some adjustments and all the details are not certain. Ask me via private messege anything you want to know and give me some detail of yourself.

Yours,

Henrik

[Andreas]

Dear Friends,
I am also concerned about some kind of collaborations and respect between the Unitarians groups.
I also know a group the Name is : On The Way Church.
With a few words they believe in God as the Father of all, Jesus Christus as the Son of God, but not God the Son !
and believe also in the Holly Gost as the Gost of purity.
It is why, for them, they can baptise in the name of the Vader, en the Son and the Holly Gost.
God bless you
Andreas

[dark_knight]

I really, really need an answer from the ACC officials to my question at the first post of mine in this thread. While waiting, all kinds of things are taking place here.

[Andreas]

Hi friends,
I am also concerned about other non trinitarian groups, because in fact, in one way, they are also members of us, but I feel that it is very dificult to find them exept the bigest denominations, other I always find the Unitarians Universalist sites, who are not realy christians.
If any body can me help to find the small groups it will be nice.
Bless
Andreas

[Danage]

There are many non-Trinitarian churches.

Non-Trinitarian churches include Binitarian, Arian and Unitarian churches.

For the Binitarian churches look up 'Herbert W Armstrong'. He was one who was a creator of several Binitarian Churches through his church and the off-shots.

[Andreas]

- About non- trinitarian groups, if you are french speaking, you can ask informations to egliseenchemin@hotmail.com.
- Si vous désirez des informations ou des échanges sur les non-trinitaires en Français, vous pouvez écrire à : egliseenchemin@hotmail.com
Merci et journée bénie.
Andreas

[Postulare42]

Such coalitions are political in nature.

I wonder what the purpose of such is supposed to be, for disciples of Jesus? How does this make me a better disciple? What is the aim?

[LeviathanNI]

... but the more I think about it, the more I am opposed to it. Fundamentally it is fear from a position of personal 'lack of strength'. I can't be arsed having my limited theological knowledge being picked at for the sake of having someone think they are right, and therefore i am wrong.. Also, I see a distinct.. I won't say split, more like 'branching' of thoughts. I can't profess to be Christian at all. I don't think Jesus was the son of God, literally or otherwise. I feel that he, as a man, would probably have been someone we could have listened to and learned from, but not worshipped or idolised. I am reading as much as I can, given limited time at the moment, but I am closer and closer to rejecting the New Testament altogether, as a massive political spin job ie, some nuggets of truth, it is just bloody finding them!

[RabbiBarry]

It sounds to me that in your searching you are willing to make admissions which have the condition of becoming dogma. On what basis would you still have an OT to look at if you reject the New Testament. The only part of the OT that allegedly rests upon secure ground is the Torah, because those five books were allegedly written by the Hand of G-d. As a historian, I find fault with that claim. As a theologian and bishop, I proclaim that truth. On the Torah rests everything else. If you reject the NT for the wrong reasons, you risk leaving yourself with nothing. The only answer then is to resort to the same Voice that spoke to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and who is the El Elyon of history.

[Postulare42]

Leviathan, there is a little book I read years ago that provided me with a new question. It was :

"Jews, God and History" by Max I. Dimont

Mr. Dimont approached this project because he felt the need to account for the unique phenomenon of the Jewish people. According to his cosiderable understanding of the forces of history, they shouldn't exist. At multiple times in their history, they should have been obliterated, by assimilation at least, as so many other cultures have. You can name some of them yourself, off the top of your head : Minoans, Cretans, Carthaginians, Classical Greeks, Ancient Egyptians, Picts, La Tene' Celts, Lombards, etc. Oh, of course their genes have marched on down to us, but their culture and identity as a people are gone. They, and many others with them.

But why not the Jews ???

His discussion, as well as being a sound history, also touches on some very important questions. I won't ruin it for you, but please consider adding it near the top of your reading list. You can even get cheap used copies on amazon.com.

I do look forward to your opening a thread on it some time soon.

[LeviathanNI]

I will order a copy from amazon this evening, and start a thread when I have read it.

[armyman_83]

Henrik, that sounds pretty interesting. I hope that I might be able to attend, however, I will be in the army and may not be able to get leave...

[antinicea]

Im currently going to a UUC and JW churches so I hope to be of help in the future. HAIL ARIUS!!!

[LeviathanNI]

Henrik, that sounds pretty interesting. I hope that I might be able to attend, however, I will be in the army and may not be able to get leave...

I hear you brother! My whole summer has just been changed, and I will definitely be incommunicado from the 29th June, until late September. Now, I will probably get on line in Scotland, Germany and England, but highly doubt it at the final destination.

BTW, trying to get your religion changed to Arian Catholic is a nightmare.. I had to get it put down as a 'peculiar person' :D
Maybe the Archbishop would do the needful and get a letter off to the MOD and petiton them for a change.. it really sdhouldn't be an issue as there was a list of over 70 different religions/faiths to choose from, so they obviously aren't stuffy about it. And as this goes on your tags, records, ID etc, it would be handy :)

[Postulare42]

I am a bit worried that we might be setting the stage for a repeat of the early church's errors inre it's relationship with governments, and the evils which ensued. Remember:

"...Beneficium accipere libertatem est vendere..." - Publius Syrus

It has really been more my concern that whatever chaplain I've encountered has been a deeply spiritual follower of God acccording to his lights. I would be contented to be prayed for by a devout believer of almost any sect that wasn't trying to "save" me on my deathbed. That would just irritate me.
I will pray for both of you, that you will be able to "do your job" and keep Jesus as your focus. :)

[Andreas]

Bonjour,o:)
Y-a-t-il des participants de ce forum Unitarien qui parlent ou sont de langue française ?
parlons un peu ensemble pour ce connaitre et échanger notre foi :
egliseenchemin@hotmail.com

bonnes journées bénies
Andreas

=======
Hello,

Are there participants of this Unitarian forum who speak or are of French language? Let us speak a little together for the knowing and exchanging of our faith:
egliseenchemin@hotmail.com

Good blessed days
Andreas