I am wondering

[george]

I was just wondering, does the Arian Catholic Church accept the Gospel according to John as legitimate? I am wondering because in that Gospel, there is this passage:

7Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. (John 14: 7-14)

Can somebody clear my ideas?

[Danage]

I was just wondering, does the Arian Catholic Church accept the Gospel according to John as legitimate? I am wondering because in that Gospel, there is this passage:

Welcome George. We accept some of John as legitimate, but not all of it.

7Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

My own personal belief on this is that when people supposedly saw the Father, they infact saw the Son, Immanuel the Archangel. Immanuel is, in my opinion, often times called god in the Scriptures, but is not God. No-one can gain eternal life if he rejects the Father.

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

When people 'saw the Father', and remember no-one can see the face of God and live, then they in fact saw the Son, Immanuel.

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. (John 14: 7-14)

Can somebody clear my ideas?


The Son, like Adam, is the image of the Father. The Father is in all and we are in the Father, as in we are in on his blessings, and Christ was in on the Father's blessings and had such high esteem for the Father, and the Father for him.

[george]

So you say that you guys accept some of John's words, but not all of it. And some you interpret using the Old Testament, using the Old Jewish Law. Which leads me to the question: Is the idea of Arianism to be "the connecting link" between Judaism and Christianity today? Does that mean that you reject Paul's (the apostle's) idea that Jesus Christ frees us from the authority of the Law, as he said in the letter to the Galatians?

[Danage]

So you say that you guys accept some of John's words, but not all of it.

Some of it has been proven spurious.

And some you interpret using the Old Testament, using the Old Jewish Law. Which leads me to the question: Is the idea of Arianism to be "the connecting link" between Judaism and Christianity today? Does that mean that you reject Paul's (the apostle's) idea that Jesus Christ frees us from the authority of the Law, as he said in the letter to the Galatians?

Paul of Tarsus did not cancel the Law. Read II Peter 3:15-16: 'And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.' (Bible used - AV as I do).

[Mpilo]

I believe that the following verses will be used to support the Trinity:

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

AND

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I have always been told that only Jesus will return or will come to earth. Do the above verses say anything different.

God blesshttp://forum.arian-catholic.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Hermes]

I believe that the following verses will be used to support the Trinity:

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

AND

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I have always been told that only Jesus will return or will come to earth. Do the above verses say anything different.

God blesshttp://forum.arian-catholic.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hey Mpilo.

If you want a nitpick answer, it doesn't say "is to come to the earth", only "which is to come". ;) Here is a verse again which has a couple of different versions: it says "the Lord God" in another, and some even think this Lord here is the tetragrammaton. Indeed, for example the NWT says Jehovah God. I think the KJV version for example is trying to make it refer to the Son by ignoring the word theos. I think there is clearly a change of person here. The earlier verse speaks of Christ, and ends that in "so it is, amen". This verse begins another exhortation and in this particular verse it is referring to the Father.

[Banned User 201202172230]

So you say that you guys accept some of John's words, but not all of it. And some you interpret using the Old Testament, using the Old Jewish Law. Which leads me to the question: Is the idea of Arianism to be "the connecting link" between Judaism and Christianity today? Does that mean that you reject Paul's (the apostle's) idea that Jesus Christ frees us from the authority of the Law, as he said in the letter to the Galatians?

Just wanted to let you know that I cannot speak for the Arian Catholic Church, as I am not Arian Catholic. However, I am Arian, and I accept all of John's Gospel as scripture.

The verses you give show us that Christ can be identified with God insofar as he is the express image of the invisible God. Because he is God as expressed in the universe, he can make statements about us seeing him as effectively seeing the Father. We can even call him God if we want, as the Old Testament Scriptures call him that on many occasions. However, we can only call him God because of the role that he was given by God as the expression of God. So if we call him God, we must still carefully maintain that he is not the Father or ontologically equal to the Father. If we do not call him God, it is because we are careful to highlight the uniqueness of the father and the distinctions between Father and Son. yet if we refuse to do so, we must acknowledge that the bible does call Christ God.

Basically, we just need to be aware that Christ is God because of role, authority, and title. Not because he is God in essence.

[Danage]

Just wanted to let you know that I cannot speak for the Arian Catholic Church, as I am not Arian Catholic. However, I am Arian, and I accept all of John's Gospel as scripture.

We don't subscribe to Biblical, and Papal, infallibility.

When John says the Word was with God (thus how can he be God?), and the Word is God he in fact means that, as you said, he has the authority, and role, of God the Father. When anyone saw God, they in fact saw Immanuel. This little nugget of information allows us to see Immanuel (and the Holy Spirit) in the Torah almost from the words 'In the beginning'.

[Culugh]

We don't subscribe to Biblical, and Papal, infallibility.

When John says the Word was with God (thus how can he be God?), and the Word is God he in fact means that, as you said, he has the authority, and role, of God the Father. When anyone saw God, they in fact saw Immanuel. This little nugget of information allows us to see Immanuel (and the Holy Spirit) in the Torah almost from the words 'In the beginning'.

I am new here and will ask, Isn't it true that Jesus became imbued with the Holy Spirit during his baptism by John the Baptist (when the Holy Spirit descended) and from that point he was able to claim the authority of the Father until the Holy Spirit departed while Jesus was on the cross and he declared " Father, why hast thou deserted me?"

[Hermes]

I am new here and will ask, Isn't it true that Jesus became imbued with the Holy Spirit during his baptism by John the Baptist (when the Holy Spirit descended) and from that point he was able to claim the authority of the Father until the Holy Spirit departed while Jesus was on the cross and he declared " Father, why hast thou deserted me?"

Welcome! Glad to have another on board! It's true that the Holy Spirit descended during the baptism, but I don't know if the Holy Spirit left on the cross.

What I do know is that he's paraphrasing from the Old Testament, compare the verses Mark 15:34 with Psalms 22:2. The psalm itself is rather beautiful.

[miseretur]

Personally, I do not belive the so-called adoptionism.
If that were true, then God would then be able to use any other, but Jesus was also a descendant of David, whit his flesh.
I believe that in the baptism in Jesus missoin was brightened to him also.
but thi was also a testimony to other peoples who were in that palce then.
God himself testified that this is my son.

Jesus was holy, when hi was birth.

Luk. 1:35 The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come over you, and the power of the Most High will cover you. Therefore, the child will be holy and will be called the Son of God.

The appearance of an angel just referring to the fact that, this child is a Holy.

Luk 2:11,12. Today your Savior, Christ the Lord, was born in the city of David.
And this will be a sign for you: You will find a baby wrapped in strips of cloth and lying in a manger."

Luk 2:21. After eight days had passed, the child was circumcised and named Jesus, the name given him by the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

Luk 2:40. Meanwhile, the child continued to grow and to become strong. He was filled with wisdom, and God's favor was with him.

Luk 2:46,47. Three days later they found him in the temple sitting among the teachers, listening to them, and asking them questions.
All who heard him were amazed at his intelligence and his answers.

Luk 2:49. He said to them, "Why were you looking for me? Didn't you know that I had to be in my Father's house?"

[miseretur]

Welcome to this forum Culugh :)

It´s glad that the, new members will and take part in discussion.



haku (http://translate.google.com/translate_s?hl=fi&sl=fi&tl=en&q=kirkastui%0A%0A%0A&source=translation_link)

[Postulare42]

In the Hebrew theology, "son of God" does not mean what it has been developed to mean in christendom. While I do not subscribe to adoptionism without some reservation, I do believe that there is strength in the some of the points. One of the records gives Yeshua as saying that we can become "sons of God".

I must constantly remind myself that christological enquiry and discussion must not be allowed to obscure the message of Yeshua.

[Hermes]

Of course there should be some reservation, the same as with Arianism, and any other "ism". We should only be in Christ, "isms" are just descriptions. Normally people think that Adoptionism means that Jesus was "adopted at his baptism to become the Son of God". That is Adoptianism, a Trinitarian version. The quotes from Luke only apply to that, and further demonstrate the folly of Trinitarianism. These terms are mixed quite often, so pay attention whenever reading about these ideas. The idea of being a Son of God is not the same as in Trinitarianism, since they see "the Son" as being "God's second person".

Jesus was for his whole life on earth without sin, even before his baptism. A loyal child of his Father, in a loving union with his God. The idea is more that Jesus was anointed at baptism, that the Spirit entered into him, so that Jesus could fully begin his ministry. He begins to do miracles such as healing. I see this as quite acceptable. Also, Jesus did say that the Apostles will do even greater things than he did. The Spirit does work miracles in whoever God wishes. However there is only one who has lived a sinless life.

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Can somebody clear my ideas?

First, let me say that I do not reject outright ANYTHING in ANY Gospel or epistle. I don't have to. The places which are continually used to support the Trinity simply do not support them.

Messiah stated that he did not do anything of himself, but whatever the Father did, he also stated that the very words he spoke were not his but the Father's. Therefore if Messiah's every deed and word were the Father's that means that he who saw Messiah saw the Father (for Messiah is in Father's image).

This does NOT MEAN that Messiah and the Father were "one in the same person."

When the sheep and goats are separated and judged in the end times Messiah will say to the sheep "I was hungry, thirsty, sick, in prison" and you took care of me, and the sheep will ask "when did we see you?" He will say "when you did it not to the least of my brethren you did it not to the least of me."

Therefore, we know that he who sees the BELIEVER is SEEING JESUS, in the same way that he who saw Messiah saw the Father. We represent Christ on this world and whatever the world does to the least of Christ's brethren they are doing to Christ himself!

This is a rock solid principle supported by numerous scriptures.

Christ was the "proxy" of the Father, as such he who deals with Christ deals with the Father, (this is true even of proxies in the world). When you speak to a proxy you might as well be speaking to the one who sent the proxy, and when a proxy speaks he speaks in the place of the one who sent the proxy.

The problem is with the lack of understanding of the Holy Spirit.

The same Christ who said "I and the Father are one," also said and prayed that we would be "one with the Father" even as he is "one with the Father." This, of course would be an impossibility (us being one with the Father as he is one) if Messiah's oneness existed because he was IN FACT the Father.

Some things are common sense.

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

I believe that the following verses will be used to support the Trinity:

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

AND

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

I have always been told that only Jesus will return or will come to earth. Do the above verses say anything different.

God blesshttp://forum.arian-catholic.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Revelation 1: 8 is not Christ speaking! Every scholar agrees on this. Go get any RED LETTER EDITION of the KJV (or I believe any) Bible and look at 1:8 you will see it is NOT in red. They are simply mistaken on this.

Later Christ calls himself the "alpha and omega" and the "beginning and the end," but these are "titles" that apply to both the Father and the Son, for the Father is the alpha and omega and hte beginning and the ending of HIS PLAN and Messiah is the plan, so he too is the alpha and omega which is why he says "I am the beginning of the creation of God" in Revelation 3:14. (The obvious question to ask any Trinitarian is how can he even call himself the beginning of the creation of God, if he is in fact God and has no beginning or ending?)



Revelation 1:8 is NOT CHRIST speaking.

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Hermes, you are a true blessing!

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Does that mean that you reject Paul's (the apostle's) idea that Jesus Christ frees us from the authority of the Law, as he said in the letter to the Galatians?

Listen, and I am going to say this in no uncertain terms. The notion that Jesus Christ freed you from the authority of the law to so that you can live your life in sin and still go to Heaven is a lie of the Roman Beast Government.

You cannot prove that statement in scripture, and Christians who attempt to prove it quickly discover the truth of the matter.

Messiah did not come to eliminate and do away with the law (he even said that blatantly). He came to "fulfill."

The law is now "written in our hearts and minds through the New Covenant" (unless you want to deny the New Covenant). How can we be free from what is written in our hearts and minds?

Only he who fulfills the law is free from the law! I can prove this scripturally!

The liberty you describe "freedom from the penalty of the law so you can go on sinning freely" is not liberty at all but is horrible and utter BONDAGE to sin!

As the apostle wrote

"Promising them liberty when they themselves are the servants of all manner of sins."

It is a twisted lie and deception of the Devil, designed to destroy your liberty you are promised through Messiah and keep you forever in bondage to your sins!

Quit buying into it, before it's too late!

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Trinitarians twist the words of Paul (Saul of Tarsus) continually and I'm noticing that some arians buy into this twisting and conclude that Saul was a heretic! It simply isn't so!

Saul never told the Galatians they were "free from the authority of the law" and he never once told us that the law is "done away" in Christ.

Here's just one example of Galatians that exposes this false testimony concerning the letter to the Galations:

"But, if while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Chist the minister of sin? God forbid?
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Fir I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I life; yet not I , but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Galatians 2: 17- 21

The problem with the mainstream interpretation of these verses comes in their lack of understanding of what it means to "live by faith." If you read the letter of James and the letter of Jude in their entirety you will see that living by faith means that you "do the works of the Righteous Christ." Faith without works is DEAD being alone!

Paul, in the above quotes states clearly that if you are "found sinning" while trying to live "in Christ" you make yourself once again the transgressor and you "destroy" that which you are trying to build!

Walking in "faith in Christ" does not excuse you from the law and from ceasing from your own sinful works, but does quite the OPPOSITE in fact which is causes you to do the works of Christ (who did the works of the Father)!

That is why in the previous verse to the above quoted text he states:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Galatians 2: 16

Where Christianity has gone wrong is concluding that because we cannot through the efforts of our own flesh follow the law, we therefore no longer are required to follow the law and the law is dead. These are conclusions NOT supported in scriptures. Again, the problem lies in that Paul states we are justified by the faith of Christ and Christians have believed the lie that this means faith alone saves you (and they do not know what it means to "believe" for if they believed Christ, they would follow him, and if they would follow him they would "love as he loved" for this was his direct command, and if they love, the law is FULFILLED in them BY LOVE, rather than by fleshly observances).

If you read Galatians again, keeping this principle in mind, you will understand that only "empty observances" and "attempts to fulfill the law in your own fleshly power" are done away here. Yet, we are NOT LEFT ALONE to our own power as believers. We have the Holy Spirit and as a result the LIVING CHRIST IN US, and we can indeed "do all things through Christ who strengthens us."

(Of course this entire post is heresy according to the trinitarians for only their CHRIST could live this way and they simply IGNORE all of the scriptures that command the believers to live in this LOVE and in this SPIRIT).

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

Trinitarians twist the words of Paul (Saul of Tarsus) continually and I'm noticing that some arians buy into this twisting and conclude that Saul was a heretic! It simply isn't so!

Saul never told the Galatians they were "free from the authority of the law" and he never once told us that the law is "done away" in Christ.

Here's just one example of Galatians that exposes this false testimony concerning the letter to the Galations:

"But, if while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Chist the minister of sin? God forbid?
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Fir I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I life; yet not I , but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."
Galatians 2: 17- 21

The problem with the mainstream interpretation of these verses comes in their lack of understanding of what it means to "live by faith." If you read the letter of James and the letter of Jude in their entirety you will see that living by faith means that you "do the works of the Righteous Christ." Faith without works is DEAD being alone!

Paul, in the above quotes states clearly that if you are "found sinning" while trying to live "in Christ" you make yourself once again the transgressor and you "destroy" that which you are trying to build!

Walking in "faith in Christ" does not excuse you from the law and from ceasing from your own sinful works, but does quite the OPPOSITE in fact which is causes you to do the works of Christ (who did the works of the Father)!

That is why in the previous verse to the above quoted text he states:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Galatians 2: 16

Where Christianity has gone wrong is concluding that because we cannot through the efforts of our own flesh follow the law, we therefore no longer are required to follow the law and the law is dead. These are conclusions NOT supported in scriptures. Again, the problem lies in that Paul states we are justified by the faith of Christ and Christians have believed the lie that this means faith alone saves you (and they do not know what it means to "believe" for if they believed Christ, they would follow him, and if they would follow him they would "love as he loved" for this was his direct command, and if they love, the law is FULFILLED in them BY LOVE, rather than by fleshly observances).

If you read Galatians again, keeping this principle in mind, you will understand that only "empty observances" and "attempts to fulfill the law in your own fleshly power" are done away here. Yet, we are NOT LEFT ALONE to our own power as believers. We have the Holy Spirit and as a result the LIVING CHRIST IN US, and we can indeed "do all things through Christ who strengthens us."

(Of course this entire post is heresy according to the trinitarians for only their CHRIST could live this way and they simply IGNORE all of the scriptures that command the believers to live in this LOVE and in this SPIRIT).