What was the sin of Arius?

[David Kone]

Let me begin by stating unequivocally that I love my Father in Heaven with all my heart and will to my last breath on earth. I felt it important to positively affirm what I believe before stating that which I do not, for it is what I hold to be true that is the foundation for my actions. There are many who define themselves by whom or what they are not. This is in such evidence in the hardened language of so many creeds and liturgies. Those who do this are doomed to become what they despise. The hypocrites rail most against their own heresies that they project onto their opponents. I can not despise those who do not agree with my theology as it is a small matter and of no treat to me unless they chose to impose more than their opinion. Unfortunately, there is a very long history of Christians persecuting fellow Christians over things that are not written in stone. It seems that as soon as the external persecution of the early church came to an end some members began to attack their fellow Christians. In some communities those differences were aired in open and honorable debate. Others were marked by the foulest acts imaginable. All for an iota's worth of difference. To give the benefit of the doubt that some deserve, the pent up anger and internalized abuse found ready vent in an area of doctrine that was ripe for misinterpretation. There are some who will not fare well on that day of final judgment for they certainly were driven to those acts of extreme cruelty solely through their own greed and hunger for power.

What was the sin of Arius? Was it that he, like Prometheus flying too close to the sun, came too perilously close to defining God himself by examining with the keen intellect, that the Lord assigned to him, the very interface between the son of man, the Son of God, and God the Father? Clearly to many of us who have followed the ascetic path and are used to the brightness of truth his interpretation of scripture was quite sensible. To many, however, these truths were too blinding, provoking fear; to which they responded with rage. A lowly priest of exquisite intelligence dared to challenge the paganized view of his superiors most of whom were incapable of following the mathematical stream of his logic. Even worse he had so many avid followers who they could not control. Besides, what he and other less brave men proposed was impeding the planned adoption of certain Christian hierarchies into the Imperium of Rome. The very same Rome that had so much to answer for was to be the designer of doctrine and scripture; this same empire with a long tradition of making men into gods so they can rule without question; with absolute authority.

If Jesus was a man and had to earn his worth before God just like the rest of us, even if he was born of a noble family, then what did that mean if your right to power came not through a close relationship with the Lord but a close relationship with the Emperor? If, however, Jesus was born God then only he can do godly things. Therefore godliness is not to be expected of Christian men in authority, but however, as officials appointed of the "GOD" Jesus, everything they decree must be true and obeyed without question.

Jesus ruled by example and gave simple instructions that all can follow. Love God with all your heart. Love you brother as yourself. The confounders of the truth would have us believe that we must have perfect doctrines and creeds, which only they can provide, to be loved by God. Yet, Jesus never said worship me with these words or this belief, he just said to believe in him and it will be enough. They who declare him God on the other hand make Jesus to be a liar. He in his own words said he was inferior to the father. He said that we can do what he did and more. We are just as capable to become the children of God because our Father accepted the man Jesus as his first Son and He will accept us also on the word of His beloved Son who is honored in Heaven above all Angels.

The foul fruit of their labors soon became evident. The shallowness of their arguments that led to the Nicene Creed did not matter. They burnt all the works of their detractors, including hundreds of gospels which did not corroborate their foolishness. They silenced all opposition within their ranks and excluded or worse those they could not silence. It is ironic that a church established by an accused heretic should become obsessed with heresy.

Who was threatened by heresy? Certainly God is not diminished by any of man's foolish thoughts; nor is Jesus who countered ignorance by teaching and defending truth even unto death. So who is threatened by other men's ideas; those whose ideas will not stand the light of truth for their words are based on lies and their power is based on lies. They who profess love, charity, and divine sanction in public but behind the scenes they are thieves, winebibbers, whoremongers, murderers and hypocrites who Jesus does not know.

All true authority comes through walking the path of righteousness which prepares the way for our lord. No vestment or scepter bestows righteousness. Only through following the path that Jesus showed us can it be earned. A church with all its temples, priests, altars, holy objects, and liturgies can be a great vessel by which multitudes are transported across the treacherous sea of confusion to salvation. But without the blessing of a humble and godly clergy it is like ship built with rotted wood, full of worms and corruption.

What was Arius' sin? He loved and obeyed God; the same sin that Jesus was crucified for; the same sin that God loves them for, because it was not against His law but man's law that they were persecuted. What is the sin of Trinitarians? YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME! Their god is created just as much as if it were made of brass. It is of the utmost arrogance that such creatures should ever begin to formulate and decree the composition of God. If Jesus wanted us to worship him equal with God why didn't he just say I am God, worship me. What would have been the down side of such an announcement; if he was God then he would simply vanquish any who did not worship him. Even better why did Jesus not educate us about God having three personalities if such was important to our salvation? Was there a parable that they have not told us about? Jesus did not come to tell us of a schizophrenic god of which he was but one aspect of; but rather, he came to announce our Father who art in Heaven, the loving Father who loves all his children; the Father that we do not know because of our unclean hearts not because of our imperfect beliefs. Our thoughts are never going to be anything but foolish to God. Our hearts, on the other hand, can become as pure as any angel in Heaven if we but follow the path of righteousness. This is the meaning of the words that tell us we must become as little children to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. It is so simple that a little child can understand but old men still have not figured it out.

What was the consequence of following a false god? First there was intolerance and division in the church. Then there were wars between Christian tribes and states. The Jews in amongst the Trinitarians were persecuted for believing what Jesus believed. The advent of Mohamedism was probably a direct result of the squabbling among Christians and Jews in his Mohamed's home land. Its spread was only possible because the people in so many countries held animosity towards the Roman Empire and saw its adoption of Christian vestments as a thin disguise for the new Rome still required their subjects to follow a foreign god. We went into the dark ages because church orthodoxy required the elimination of free thought. Many were severely punished just for possessing unsanctioned writings. The spirit of oppression and intolerance pervaded all of society for long centuries. These are some of the many plagues that came from forcing Trinitarian dogma on those who just wanted to be close to their Savior; to feel loved by our Father who art in Heaven.

How do we rectify something that has become entrenched for hundreds of years? We do as Jesus did by talking to the multitudes with a message not of coincident salvation but of transcendent salvation. No man inherits the Kingdom of God through a coincidental birthright. Even Immanuel had to labor on the path set by his Father. He said that we too can transcend the evils of this world and be sons of God. He holds forth the light to show us the way because he loves us as his Father loves us. He died on the cross so we can understand the truth not of men but of our Father who art in Heaven.

Peace be with you,
David Kone

:innocent:

[Augustines Error]

beautifully written! I still wonder on what grounds are we damned to everlasting torment for denying the trinity? Nowhere in the Bible is the trinity mentioned nor does it specify the importance of holding such belief. I think that the trinitarians would do well to sit down for an hour and meditate on John 7:16-18

[jimmywilletts]

The whole reason I became interested in Arianism is due to the fact that I had not belief whatsoever in the Trinity. I really do struggle to understand why people believe in it....it must be just because they have been conditioned to it over the years and feel it would be wrong to go against it.

Just my 2 penneth :D

Great original post BTW David.

[Masamune]

I agree, the trinity is simply a 3rd century invention to validate Christianity by deifying (sp?) Jesus. Trinitarians today can't tell you what the trinity is other than the cookie cutter answer that they have heard one million times in church. The Bible never says that God exist in a trinity, and the Bible never says that those who don't believe in such a thing will burn forever in hellfire, as so many Baptist and Presbyterians would have us believe (and I've been a member of both churches so I should know).

One of the best books that I've ever read that really confirms my anti-trinitarian beliefs (even though that is not the aim of the book), is Lost Christianities, which really exposes the Orthodox Church for their corruption of the trinity doctrine.

[Danage]

Do you mean the Orthodox Churches of the East (Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) or the 'mainstream' Christian Churches?

As to Arius' sin - if Jesus/Yeshuah is Messiah, then Arius has applied Scripture, reason, logic and established Jewish thought to Christianity, and hence is more credible than any Caesar or Pope of Rome.

[bupanishad2012]

http://www.monachos.net/patristics/alexander_ariusdep.shtml

A very thorough "reaming" of St. Arius and his followers!

[bupanishad2012]

http://www.monachos.net/patristics/alexander_ariusdep.shtml

A very thorough "reaming" of St. Arius and his followers!


http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/ALEXOFA.htm

[David Kone]

:eek: http://www.monachos.net/patristics/alexander_ariusdep.shtml

A very thorough "reaming" of St. Arius and his followers!

“Since, therefore, they back up the impious opinion concerning Christ, which is held by the Jews and Greeks, in every possible way they strive to gain their approval; busying themselves about all those things which they are wont to deride in us, and daily stirring up against us seditions and persecutions. And now, indeed, they drag us before the tribunals of the judges, by intercourse with silly and disorderly women, whom they have led into error; at another time they cast opprobrium and infamy upon the Christian religion, their young maidens disgracefully wandering about every village and street. “
Alexander, Bishop of Alexandria
Decree on the Deposition of Arius :eek:

In a couple of sentences in the first paragraph he manages to slander Jews, Greeks, and women. His delusions of grandeur are accompanied by intense feelings of persecution.

[bupanishad2012]

The arguments against St. Arius were always "ad hominem" as far as I can see. The RCC should have made peace with St. Arius and let him be part of the process instead of dissing him. A mistake, by the way, that is not likely to be reconsidered in our day unless the ACC gains enough doctrinal and political clout to face off Rome---which is devoutly to be hoped for.

[David Kone]

Our duty is to become practiced in the use of the sword of truth so that the doctrines will aquit themselves in the moment of battle. Our Lord will deal with the politics as He dealt with the walls of Jericho.
:vbgrin:
Have faith. They can not keep the Arians from their gates forever nor can they can keep the spirit of truth from working within.

We have waited patiently through the centuries while they continued to anathemize us.The Lord has been very slow to anger while the list of injustices grows long. He has been preparing his people, in the fire of tribulation, for the time to come. Those old bones that lie hidden in the recesses of the vatican are about to be given new flesh and spirit. They will open the gates. They will speak things that have long been silenced through the force of politics. The faithful will be vindicated.

[David Kone]

Soon after a faintness came over him, and together with the evacuations his bowels protruded, followed by a copious haemorrhage, and the descent of the smaller intestines: moreover portions of his spleen and liver were brought off in the effusion of blood, so that he almost immediately died. -Socrates Scholasticus

In very graphic terms we are given the details of his death. Most sources speculate that he may have been poisoned. I know of no poison that has this type of violent reaction. I was told many years ago that his death was more likely cause by crushing. The theory being that he was assassinated by a mob which piled on top of him thereby bursting and extruding his internal organs. This was a particularly vicious method of taking a life.

I bring this up because I get the distinct feeling that still today many are snickering in delight and gloating that this great man was punished for his heresy. Has there ever been a condemnation of this heinous act or an apology issued by the Roman Catholic Church for the treatment he received?

[dark_knight]

Silently, they are pleased that the 'heretics' were punished violently.
So is the case with calvinists and Calvin's actions against Michael Servetus.

[David Kone]

It seems that this vile spirit came over the church of Rome and spred to all its offspring. Someone really aught to exorcise it.

[Danage]

The Whore of Babylon (in Christian Revelation) can be equated to the Trinitarian Churches, for the whore is the mother of harlots and abominations, which spawned many errors and harlot daughters.

[David Kone]

The Whore of Babylon (in Christian Revelation) can be equated to the Trinitarian Churches, for the whore is the mother of harlots and abominations, which spawned many errors and harlot daughters.

My concern is only with the spiritual errors that have gone on uncorrected. The Roman Catholic Church has a rich history and has much to its credit including the many very fine people who continue to uphold its traditions. Yes, their practices in manyl areas are not consistent with the original teachings and their structure is roman pagan but it is an old spirit of hateful intolerance that that resides in the Vatican, in the cathedrals, churches, on icons, vestments, and all the functionaries of the mass that corrupts the cleanliness of the hearts of its members. Because it has not been addressed the errors of the ages from the time of Babylon continue. When people and institutions are infallible there is no need to reform. A prostitute is not of ill repute because of what she wears. They are in error because they have mixed in a casual manner the false affections of many into the sacred bond of the intimate relationship which exists between couples. Trinitarians and everyone else may recite whatever creeds they like, it is only vanity, but when they condone and protect an evil spirit in their midst then they are courting affections that are outside of the sacred bond of intimacy with Christ. The fact that so many were tortured and put to death, that whole communities were violently eliminated, and that tacit approval was given to the murder of millions all because the were "heretics" but yet have made no acknowledgement of their sins nor given a genuine apology is quite disturbing. It is important for us, as we grow the Arian Catholic Church, that we accept who we collectively have been as a Christian community and repent of those things that are not of Christ thereby setting forth a new clean spirit of true charity and acceptance.
:krazz:

[brotherkev]

Yeah the trinity is quite the fable, that can be knocked over if one knows where to go thru scripture..

and I agree. most have no clue why they beleive in it, they're just spouting out a mantra from 1700 years ago, so thankfully the pagan idea of the trinity are being exposed via the internet and people are curious to see what it's all about

[Matt2817]

Our duty is to become practiced in the use of the sword of truth so that the doctrines will aquit themselves in the moment of battle. Our Lord will deal with the politics as He dealt with the walls of Jericho.

:vbgrin:

Have faith. They can not keep the Arians from their gates forever nor can they can keep the spirit of truth from working within.

We have waited patiently through the centuries while they continued to anathemize us.The Lord has been very slow to anger while the list of injustices grows long. He has been preparing his people, in the fire of tribulation, for the time to come. Those old bones that lie hidden in the recesses of the vatican are about to be given new flesh and spirit. They will open the gates. They will speak things that have long been silenced through the force of politics. The faithful will be vindicated.

Amen, and amen! My question dear David, is posed with much respect and admiration: Why promote the LCC whose doctrine whole-heartedly accepts the doctrine of the Trinity? Perhaps you have outgrown this? I also have a website that promotes the doctrine, one which I lay at the feet of Jesus in repentance. My allegiance was done from ignorance. Can you claim the same? This is not a challenge per se, merely a wish to clarify what it is that you beleive.
_________

Ausgustinians of the Rosary (http://www.freewebs.com/orderofsaintaugustineoftherosary/)

+Wayne Matthew Mari

post script:

We have opened ourselves to the scrutiny of each other via our trinitarian past. Our vulnerability is apparent. It is my prayer that we may come together in the spirit of unity that no creed can condemn nor Church diminish.

Pax!

[Matt2817]

Dear forum,

Grace and peace! Am I being moderated? If so please explain. My last post came back as being subject to moderation. I am curious.

In blessing, bless
Wayne Matthew Mari

[Danage]

Dear forum,

Grace and peace! Am I being moderated? If so please explain. My last post came back as being subject to moderation. I am curious.

In blessing, bless
Wayne Matthew Mari

It depends in what forum it is made. In off-topic all topics are approved by a modertor first.

[Danage]

Amen, and amen! My question dear David, is posed with much respect and admiration: Why promote the LCC whose doctrine whole-heartedly accepts the doctrine of the Trinity?

What is the LCC, is it something like Lutheran (despite the fact that Martin Luther was the first Protestant) Catholic Church or something along those lines?

Edit - it is the Liberal Catholic Church, sorry about that.

[David Kone]

Why promote the LCC whose doctrine whole-heartedly accepts the doctrine of the Trinity?

Dear +Wayne,
I have chosen to affiliate with the LCC for one simple reason, that being that they accept diversity of opinion. Many of their members do indeed ascribe to the doctrine of the Trinity but it is not mandatory unless you are to be ordained as a bishop. Even then, it may be possible to have a purely metaphorical interpretation. I do believe in a trinity of sorts; the force, mass and acceleration of Isaac Newton or the energy, mass and square of the speed of light given by Albert Einstein. The names I assign to each of these concepts are irrelevant for they are not a dogmatic institution. The LCC exists to serve Christ; they have no other agenda. I love Arius not because he was right, which he was within the context of his learning, but because he was one of the finest representatives of that long tradition of Alexandria which was the center of learning and open discussion between diverse belief systems espoused by scholars from all over the civilized world. What happened to Arius also happened to that tradition of freedom. The cruel fanaticism that evolved into the burning of the library and the murder of its attendants is what I reject, not the Trinitarians who cling to that limited construct. Let us not repeat the intolerance. I do not need to fear other people’s ideas. Every moment of my life is an opportunity to shine the light of truth, when they are ready for it they will hear; in the mean time I keep focused on what is really important, service to Christ.

David

[Matt2817]

David, Grace and peace be with you. Thanks very much for the answer to my question. I certainly appreciate your consideration.

Indeed, it is better to be compassionate, than to be doctrinally correct on all points. I thank you for your stand, and am happy to make your aquaintance.

In blessing, bless,
Wayne Matthew Mari

[Culugh]

beautifully written! I still wonder on what grounds are we damned to everlasting torment for denying the trinity? Nowhere in the Bible is the trinity mentioned nor does it specify the importance of holding such belief. I think that the trinitarians would do well to sit down for an hour and meditate on John 7:16-18

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't it state in the New Testament that the one sin that can't be forgiven is to mock the Holy Spirit? You can be forgiven for even mocking the Father or Jesus. This leads me to believe that the trinity as believed in by the Trinititarians is false. Jesus was fully man until his baptism when the Spirit of God descended upon him and remained with him until he was crucified and and asked " Father, why hast thou deserted me?" The Holy Spirit of God IS God, the Creator's spirit, Jesus is the son of the Father, just as we all are, created by the Father in his image. I can't separate Creator from his spirit anymore than I can separate my spirit from myself, It is what makes me who I am. I can't believe in a tri-part God, only in the one God who is the Creator and shall have NO OTHER GOD before Him.

[Archbishop Michael-John]

Yes, Culugh, this is a very good demonstration of how errant trinitarianism is.

The Synoptic Gospels concur on this issue (see: Mark 3:19b - 30; Matthew 12:22 - 32; Luke 11:14 - 23). These verses speak of the war between good and evil and show that there is no neutral ground between the two. Yeshua basically said: "You are either with me or against me!"

However, within this passage (E.g. Mark 3:28-29 NRSV) Yeshua said "Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven for their sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit can never have forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

Yeshua suffered and died for our sins, he was our scapegoat. How could this be possible if he was also the Holy Spirit? Again at Yeshua's Baptism, when he was about 30, the Holy Spirit descended upon him! How could that have been possible if he was also the Holy Spirit.

If the trinitarians were correct then it would have been pointless Yeshua crying out at the crucifixion: "forgive them for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34), though the Romans were unwittingly fulfilling prophesy as they beat him, crucified him and cast lots to divide Yeshua's belongings – and by doing something so terrible they were also being a part of something remarkably wonderful.

The Holy Spirit is the Spiritual influence of God, it can speak to our souls for Him, and act for Him but is distinct from God and Yeshua. That is why when we receive the Holy Spirit, our bodies become a temple, which is sacred, we must not abuse or blaspheme against the Holy Spirit and therefore nor our own bodies.

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

The "sin" of Arius was to "think it not robbery to be equal with God."

As you so eloquently stated, Arius put his finger squarely on the Holy truth that we have a hope and a calling of being "sons of God" even as Christ! The Roman influence, and specifically the Trinitarian influence came to destroy that hope! (Something that is quite in vain I assure you).

I don't think that most non-trinitarians have yet come to the conclusion and realized the TRUE nature and danger of the trinity! Many modern non-trinitarians seem to want to treat the trinity heresy as a "simple mistake" and they seem to want to mitigate the severity of this error. (One pastor of a non-trinitarian group actually suggested that I should attend a trinitarian church rather than go without fellowship, I think this pastor fails to grasp the command "come out of her my people so that you receive not of her plagues).

Anyway, many see the trinitarian debate as a minor one and see the disagreement as simply a "difference of opinion." They have not yet realized that it is FAR MORE than that. The trinity teaching is nothing less than the DESTRUCTION of the work of the CROSS! If the trinity were true the cross then becomes a lie (for Christ's death was an illusion, being that he was God incarnate and God does not die). Without Christ's death the resurrection, therefore, is also a sham!

When you add to this basic logic the realization that if Christ obeyed the Father in perfect love because he was IN FACT the Father you DESTROY the hope of the believer in REPEATING CHRIST, EMULATING CHRIST, or IMITATING CHRIST! (As you so correctly pointed out in your original post).

Once the trinity is accepted as dogma the person who accepts it is now without HOPE and has no defense against the ravages of Satan in their hearts and minds! (Of course, there are those who are ignorant and under divine and spiritual protection). Once a person begins to adamantly DEFEND the TRINITY either verbally or in writing this person slowly slips into unbelief and robs him or herself of their very salvation.

Once non-trinitarians realize this truth we can be far more effective in our conviction and in our preaching for we know what is at stake for the poor deceived trinitarian!

[David Kone]

It is my habit to view all in the best light that I can imagine including those who call me a heretic (a moniker I bare with honor). We were all left a great inheritance that was uniquely singular in its profound blessing that was passed on to us by Master Yeshua in his death.

And a certain one said to him, out of the multitude, `Teacher, say to my brother to divide with me the inheritance.'

And he said to him, `Man, who set me a judge or a divider over you?' Luke 12:13-14 (Young's Literal Translation)

Many have taken that inheritance, or better said, what they thought that inheritance was, to themselves, dividing everyone else from their share. They do not understand. “Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God is One.” Any explanation about how three is one only further separates themselves from both the truth and the treasure of our unity in Christ. To give them the benefit of the doubt (which they have never extended to me) their doxological obsession with the Trinity may by viewed abstractly as their inner search for the attributes of God.

In passing through the tedium of the constant references to their all-important creed I simply transpose their jargon to interface with a more universal philosophy. God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all aspects, of which there are many, of Elyon (God Most High). God the Father is the creator and protector aspects; The Holy Spirit is the Shekinah or Ruach Elohim, the feminine aspect that is manifested, frequently associated with wisdom; the Son represents the physical manifestation of God’s Love. Just as an abundant harvest is the manifestation of the Goodness of our Lord. As the harvest is manifested in the fullness of grain taken from the fields and the rich piles of grapes from the vineyard, so too was the living person we call Jesus a manifestation of His Abundant Love in providing us with a living saint who overflowed in Righteousness. Such abundance is all around us in the Sovereignty of Heaven. It manifest on the clouds, the fields, the seas, in the faces of our children, in the hearts of those who bare the follies of mankind, … it is everywhere except in the stinginess of those who would divide us from the Great Inheritance. So I do not fault them for their tradition of explaining God in terms they can understand but I do hold them accountable for keeping others out when they themselves cannot enter in.

The record is clear that Master Yeshua kept within his inner circle people of many different viewpoints. Simon was a zealot, Judas an assassin, and Matthew, the lowest of all, a tax collector. He did not divide them by their beliefs; they were divided solely on whether or not they followed the will of our Father in Heaven. Yeshua did not divide, he united the Amne ha'aretz, the common folks, who gathered in great throngs to hear his words. It was the corrupt temple establishment which was in league with the Romans that was tearing their community apart. Many knew that there was an older tradition still maintained by the desert prophets that existed before King Solomon. The Amne ha'aretz hated King Solomon. Solomon placed heavy burdens of taxation on them to build the Temple and supply his lavish lifestyle starting a tradition of royal oppression. It was the corrupt worldly mindset of the Roman and Temple officials that thought it would be good for everyone if the person the common folks were suddenly rallying around were to be put to death. This would save the land from a blood bath that was sure to ensue as the establishment, protecting their lavish lifestyles, clamped down on insurrection. Crucifixion was the punishment for insurrectionists not for heretics. Killing heretics would become a Christian specialty.

The name Yeshua means salvation. He did not teach individual salvation to the people at large as the rules for being a good person was common knowledge. Those who believed in an afterlife, the Pharisees, all knew what the rules were from the time they were babies. The whole lucrative business of personal sin and personal salvation is just part of the massive hocus pocus mind control the church exercises over their believers. Master Yeshua’s references to Gehenna pertains to a prophetic tradition warning of the extinction of Israel as a people. Salvation as taught by the prophetic schools was about continued existence as a people. Since the time of Yeshua many nations including Israel have fallen due to internal strife that prevented them from making wiser collective decisions.

The whole gentile church became all about belief and adherence to creed because they had to learn a religion that was not culturally connected to their own. So everything was explained to them like children in terms they already knew. Greeks knew that gods could magically impregnate mortal women so men Like Caesar could be gods … so voila Jesus was God. Simple and childish just like Sunday school stories for little children. What Master Yeshua taught was not in any way connected to their many foolish teachings, the teaching of the trinity being just one of them. They are not going to hell because of what they teach; they are going into extinction (sheol) as peoples, as nations, for how they divide themselves against the Unity of Heaven.

St. Arius as best I can tell did not force or intimidate others to have his opinion. Later, others, who called themselves Arians, did engage in the same rule by force as those with whom they disagreed. I will have none of that in my heart. Those who have a different opinion do not distress me. I cannot change them nor is it my task to do so. Master Yeshua predicted the fall of the Temple and Israel's dispersal; there was nothing he could do to change their course other than to prophetically warn them thereby teaching us the cause of their destruction so we can be forewarned of our own.
:krolleyes:

[TwoWitnessesUSdotcom]

St. Arius as best I can tell did not force or intimidate others to have his opinion. Later, others, who called themselves Arians, did engage in the same rule by force as those with whom they disagreed. I will have none of that in my heart. Those who have a different opinion do not distress me. I cannot change them nor is it my task to do so. Master Yeshua predicted the fall of the Temple and Israel's dispersal; there was nothing he could do to change their course other than to prophetically warn them thereby teaching us the cause of their destruction so we can be forewarned of our own.
:krolleyes:

The truth does not require "force." The truth is self evident and sets free (does not take captive). There are two camps and only two. Those who have an intent, desire, and hope to obey the Father and become "like Yeshua" (and thus like the Father) and who press forward in faith toward that hope and those who do not! Those who do not are forever barred (at some point) from entering that glorious place where they have no need even for the sun for the Father himself is the warm glow of life! Those who do not are in outer darkness. This is what scripture teaches. It is a very small matter to show how those who believe in the Trinity are seeking to excuse themselves from being of the former camp (a child could figure this out) and it is not a small leap of logic to conclude that they shall therefore be a part of the latter camp (unless they repent).

We cannot stick our heads in the sand and make truth utterly relative because in the end there is a destination we seek and only those who find the truth shall arrive there.

Shalom

[Postulare42]

I suspect that the criterion by which the ... uh ... border between the "two" is not as single as some would have it. In the Matthew parable of the judgement, many will be surprised to find that they have been chosen. Further, it suggests that the criterion has little to do with being doctrinaire. Rather, another far deeper measure is indicated.

Pax Intrantibus
Pax et Bonum