Thesis 26: Apostolicae Curae.

[Archbishop Michael-John]

26. The hipocrytical declaration of Apostolicae Curae, by the Roman Catholic church on the nullity of Anglican Orders, is itself null and void due to the uncertainty of the unbroken apostolic descent of Roman Catholic orders. The Anglican church can trace its apostolic descent to the Bishop of Rome, Nicholas II, on 15th April 1061; however, 92% of Roman Catholic Bishops cannot trace their Apostolic descent any further back than the Bishop of Troia, Scipione Rebiba, on 12th March 1566.

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The full 33 Theses are also available for download in PDF format (requiring Adobe Acrobat Reader 7 or higher) from the following link...
http://arian-catholic.org/downloads/33_Theses.pdf

[Postulare42]

I'm sorry, sir, but all this presupposes an ex opere operato, almost "magical", function of the entire ordination process at all.

It also appears to have another hidden premise within it. It is that ordination or investiture makes some sort of indellible mark, bestowing irrevocable powers and authority.

In the EOC, even the "consecration" of the eucharistic sacrifice is only a "request by priest and congregation" for the descent of the holy spirit upon the bread and wine, and the congregation as a whole. There are no guarantees that the request will be answered favorably...unless certain internal spiritual economies are maintained.

The Coptics teach similarly.

It is with the RCC, that the idea that the priest is the magician, permanently set aside, whose incantations must be heard and followed by the godhead regardless of the spiritual/moral states of the performers. This path has lead to the idolatry of the "eucharistic cult" of the middle ages that survives to this day in the RCC.

The entire lineage issue collapses when these premises are excised, and their dependant theories collapse with them.

Im sorry...but I just can follow you in this direction until these issues are addresssed in an ante-Nicene, non-Roman fashion, or are excised root AND branch. :(

[Danage]

It is with the RCC, that the idea that the priest is the magician, permanently set aside, whose incantations must be heard and followed by the godhead regardless of the spiritual/moral states of the performers. This path has lead to the idolatry of the "eucharistic cult" of the middle ages that survives to this day in the RCC.

If the presbyter, bishop, or minister keeps to the Law of God then God is more likely to answer their request. Since we in the ACC keep to the Law of God, then the ministry of the ACC (myself included) are more likely to have our prayers and requests answered by God the Father, with the Son of God mediating, through the power of God (the Holy Spirit).

In the ACC we recognise the Apostolic descent of the Church of England (but not the Methodists), and the Roman Catholic Church. Protestant Churches, including the Methodists (which are Anglican in a way, as the Church of England is both 'Catholic and Reformed'), do not have Apostolic Succession as the giving Holy Spirit was not passed down from the Apostles to them.

The entire lineage issue collapses when these premises are excised, and their dependant theories collapse with them.

Im sorry...but I just can follow you in this direction until these issues are addressed in an ante-Nicene, non-Roman fashion, or are excised root AND branch. :(

Without the Apostolic Succession how could the ministry of the ACC claim succession from the Apostles of Christ? The ministry of the ACC would not have the Apostolic Succession and the Arian Catholic Order would thus be null and void, as the Apostolic Succession would be broken and the Arian Catholic Church would not be the true church of Christ on Earth.

[LeviathanNI]

Without the Apostolic Succession how could the ministry of the ACC claim succession from the Apostles of Christ? The ministry of the ACC would not have the Apostolic Succession and the Arian Catholic Order would thus be null and void, as the Apostolic Succession would be broken and the Arian Catholic Church would not be the true church of Christ on Earth.


I wonder did Bishops of the RC Church ask the same things many years ago...

[Postulare42]

Can one lose the ear of God? Most decidedly so. Does God give ear to whomsoever He wills? Historical accounts tend to support this. Does the Father have a history of selecting those that humans would not have selected? There are precedents . . . . lol

In as much as the power and authority of any sacerdotal act resides not in the operator but rather in God alone, then the mere performance of any ritual does not automatically result in the ostensible effect of said ritual . . . regardless of the person performing the actions. For this reason, it is highly likely that many ordinations and annointings performed through the ages have been without effect except in the imaginations of those involved.

Conversely, God annoints whomsoever He wills, and in a manner that takes little account of the whims of humanity . . . or the early or late pressings of olive juices.

"Apostolic" succession is as irrelevant as is death to One who creates life from nothing.

:reveek:

[Rev Smith]

"Apostolic" succession is as irrelevant as is death to One who creates life from nothing.

:reveek:

And yet the Master himself appears to have instituted that very order (many times, but for brevity see John 20:19-24 - As the Father sent me, so I am sending you." And he breathed on them and said: "Receive the Holy Spirit For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven for those whose sins you retain, they are retained".

It is certain that God does not have to listen to any man, but rather that he instituted a schema of Grace to ensure that it is freely available to even the imperfect, the incomplete. I may pray directly to God, our Father and seek forgiveness for my transgressions, and he will hear. He may know that my contrition is imperfect, yet from love has empowered those of his workers to look past that and freely dispense his grace, through Communion and Forgiveness. It does not seem to me that the Priest is a magician, but rather that he is an "officer", doing work that God has empowered him to do. It is not the sanctity of the man that matters, but rather the love of God and the faithfulness of his Sheep.

Apostolic succession is how we are bound to John and the rest of the original Priests in the authority to do His work

[Postulare42]

We shall have to agree to disagree, for I see neither merit nor necessity in the purely human construct of succession.

I see our connection with the first church to be our simple, heartfelt and honest adherence to the truths underlying the fragments of the message of Jesus which have come down to us.

". . . they shall know you are my disciples by your love . . ."

". . . You say, 'We have Abraham as our father'. But I say to you, that the Father can raise up children of Abraham from these stones . . . ".

Successional hierarchies do not seem to figure greatly in the "Sermon on the Mount".

Pax Intrantibus
Pax et Bonum