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dark_knight
3rd February 2007, 11:29 AM
This thread is to state my own belief system as Arian in Christology and in it's fundamental nature. If I am incorrect, it serves to point out these issues which are, or are not, inclusive on Arianism.

I am quoting some ancient and modern arian creeds and adding my remarks after them.


First Arian Confession (Antioch, 341 AD)

For we have been taught from the first, to believe in one God, the God of the Universe, the Framer and Preserver of all things both intellectual and sensible.

And in One Son of God, Only-begotten, who existed before all ages, and was with the Father who had begotten Him, by whom all things were made, both visible and invisible, who in the last days according to the good pleasure of the Father came down; and has taken flesh of the Virgin, and jointly fulfilled all His Father’s will, and suffered and risen again, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father, and cometh again to judge quick and dead, and remaineth King and God unto all ages.

And we believe also in the Holy Ghost; and if it be necessary to add, we believe concerning the resurrection of the flesh, and the life everlasting.*


I agree with this Arian Creed

*This points out, that my belief in the Resurrection of the Flesh is not foreing to ancient arianism. In the other Arians Creeds, there are also hints of the 'Age to Come' when Christ will rule.


Third Arian Confession (Antioch, 341 AD)

God knows, whom I call as a witness upon my soul, that so I believe:- in God the Father Almighty, the Creator and Maker of the Universe, from whom are all things.

And in His Only-begotten Son, Word, Power, and Wisdom, our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things; who has been begotten from the Father before the ages, perfect God from perfect God*, and was with God in subsistence, and in the last days descended, and was born of the Virgin according to the Scriptures, and was made man, and suffered, and rose again from the dead, and ascended into the heavens, and sat down on the right hand of His Father, and cometh again with glory and power to judge quick and dead, and remaineth for ever:

And in the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the Spirit of truth (John 15:26), which also God promised by His Prophet to pour out (Joel 2:28) upon His servants, and the Lord promised to send to His disciples: which also He sent, as the Acts of the Apostles witness**.
But if any one teaches, or holds in his mind, aught beside this faith, be he anathema; or with Marcellus of Ancyra, or Sabellius, or Paul of Samosata, be he anathemas both himself and those who communicate with him.


*Only thing in this creed that I am at unease is this verse. Even so, I could accept it, if it is interpret to mean that the Word, as he was directly made by God the Father, is different kind of creature and is the "perfect radiation" of the Father.

This creed shows that the Paraclete is the Spirit which is poured. Thus this creed is incompatible with Moslem claim that the Paraclete was Mohammad.
Also this creed anathemizes Paul of Samosata, thus makin clear that Arians are not 'judaizers'. The Fifth Arian Confesson also makes this clear.

**Ancient Arians did not apparently reject the Acts - the Acts tell us about Paul of Tarsos.

Let it be said that on the Sixth Arian Confession, I have many troubles accepting it. Perhaps I will go in them profoundly other time - This first post in this thread is to define whether I am an Arian or not.


The [Modern] Arian Catholic Creed

I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD,
Creator of Heaven and earth,
And of all things visible and invisible.
And in his Spiritual Son*, Jesus Christ,
Whom was born of Mary and Joseph**,
Was not consubstantial nor co-eternal with God the Father almighty,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, died, and was buried.
On the third day His Spirit was resurrected.
He ascended into Heaven,
And sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty.
Whence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead,
Of whose Kingdom there shall be no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit,
The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,
The communion of saints,
The forgiveness of sins,
The resurrection of the Spirit***,
And life everlasting.
Amen

* I would add that Jesus was also a Son of God by the generation bedore the ages, and by divine intervention to his birth

** As I am a believer in the Virgin Birth, I would replace "and" with "to"

*** I would add, "and the Body" as the ancient Arian Church and the Bible attests.

Other than these, I am with agreement with this Creed.


Other assertations of my Theology, arian in nature, extracted from old posts of mine from another forum.

"my Divinity-theology and Christology is in a nut shell this:

I subscribe and adhere the Shema of Israel, that Yahweh, my God is only ONE. He is One in person, in glory and worthy to receive ultimate worship.

Jesus Christ was prior to his Incarnation a personal entity called the Wisdom and the Word. He was not an angel (in particular sense) and neither was he the God Almighty. Jesus was first-born, begotten Son of God.
He was begotten again in the womb of virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (which I believe is the power of God - when referred as person, He is the very person of Unipersonal Yahweh).
When Jesus walked on earth, he did not only appear to be a man, but was a man - he was a 100 % man - only without sin like Adam before he fell. Jesus had his "previous life" in Divine Dimension, but abandoned it and took the form of a servant, the very form and nature of the man, thus being the Son of (Hu)man and the antilutron or the corresponding price of ransom for all of humanity."

furthermore I wrote...

"Let me clear the picture of my view on Jesus Christ more:

- I do not believe that preincarnate Christ was the God Yahweh

- Pre-existent Christ is a creature, but different kind a creature than anyone else, because all other things are created thru (not "by") him. (John 1. , Col. 1.)

- Christ was the Logos and also called the Wisdom - but this does not mean that Christ as a Wisdom is the Wisdom of God, as a part of God and his quality, but rather a name or term. (Prov.8.)

- Bible tells that there are many 'gods' and lords [or those who are called as such] (this very term used somewhere in 2.Cor.) and even people are called gods. Pre-incarnate Christ was El Gibbor, "a mighty god", i.e divine creature.

- There is only One Yahweh. He is the only source of energy and life force. His is the Holy Spirit. He is the only El Elyon. He is only who lives without beginning, providing all things to all others (including his Son).

- What Jesus was prior to his birth to earth as a fully human? He was the Son of God, firstborn of creation! Lord of the angels, not "an angel", but "the Angel of Yahweh", who moved before the House of Israel in the wilderness.

- From the Bible I recognize that many a creature are called "gods", but no one else is called Yahweh, the only true God. This Unipersonal God of Israel I worship."

Danage
3rd February 2007, 02:27 PM
Could you please explain the word: Paraclete please?

Also the virgin birth denies Joseph being the, and he is the descendent of King David through Solomon. Also Mary is not descended from David, or so I've read, and if she was the line was disinherited in Micah (I think), hence the virgin birth denies the Line of David and the Davidic Line ruling Israel again. You cannot spiritually pass on blood - you pass it on through the bloodline.

dark_knight
3rd February 2007, 02:34 PM
Could you please explain the word: Paraclete please?

Also the virgin birth denies Joseph being the, and he is the descendent of King David through Solomon. Also Mary is not descended from David, or so I've read, and if she was the line was disinherited in Micah (I think), hence the virgin birth denies the Line of David and the Davidic Line ruling Israel again. You cannot spiritually pass on blood - you pass it on through the bloodline.

Dan, the Paraclete (paracletos) is the word Jesus used of the Holy Spirit in his last speech to disciples, as recorded in the Gospel of John. It is usually translated 'comforter' and sometimes 'defender'.

I believe Mary was David's descendant trough Nathan, son of David. You can see different genaologies hiven of Jesus in Matthew and Luke. Luke mentions the Nathanic, princely lineage which is usally understood being Mary's - reason why it still says that Eli (or Heli) was Joseph's father, is that it could be said, since Eli was Joseph's father-in-law.

Jesus was also Joseph's legimate son trough Joseph's acknowledgment of Jesus publicly. I see not difficulty in this. Jesus was son of Abraham and son of David, but first and foremost, Son of the Living God, before the ages.

brotherkev
16th February 2007, 03:16 PM
Also this creed anathemizes Paul of Samosata, thus makin clear that Arians are not 'judaizers'. The Fifth Arian Confesson also makes this clear.




Paul of Samosata (200 -275)

As far as Paul.. He is not a judaizer, he is a Monarchianist, which is more of a 'gentile' form of Messianic Judaism. Being the forefront of Adoptionism, he brought forth the idea that Jesus was not the 'Son of God' until he was Baptized, and so was the adopted son of God. He also has that Jesus is a man and is the messiah, born of Joseph and Mary. At his baptism, he was infused with the Logos and so at his baptism aquired his two-natured aspect. He is also sinless and so being like any good Jewish men at the time was a rabbi at the age of 30 and Jesus began teaching, but more importantly, stayed sinless (and therefore was rewarded by God as his adopted son)

Lucian (Pauls student, and later teacher of Arius) [240 - 312]

This man is well known for his great scholarship and biblical accuracy and is quite an dinfluence to several early church fathers.

Now for Arian, (256 - 336)

Arian studied in Antioch as a student of Lucian (which is a pupil of Paul of Samosata)

Arian has that Jesus is not eternal, same as Paul.
jesus was created out of nothing, and is not of the same sustance as the father.
he also has that Jesus is subordinate to the father (which Jesus states)

Arian was prominent in the Gnostic city of Alexandria, and so a few of Arians ideas share Gnostic leanings (Neo-Platonism)

1) God didn't creater matter - God had the logos do it for him. which is part of the Gnostic dualism where spirit is good & matter is evil.

There is a hymn which shows Arius' thought, and the adpotionist thought that came from Paul thru to Lucian

'The uncreated God has made the Son A beginning of things created, And by adoption has God made the Son Into an advancement of Himself. Yet the Son’s substance is Removed from the substance of the Father: The Son is not equal to the Father, Nor does is share in the same substance. God is the all wise Father, And the Son is the teacher of His mysteries. The members of the Holy Trinity Share unequal glories.'

note the Holy trinity exists as an idea, but not as what the trinitarians are thinking....Arius' trinity is [God, Jesus, Logos]

SUMMARY:

Paul is not the judaizer that the poster mentions, Arius actually is an adoptionist (which I bolded in the above Arian hymn) like Paul.
---------------------------

Enionites (the real judaizers)

The Ebionites which Have Yahweh as GOD, and Jesus as the Messian, and is only a man and not pre-existant. The Ebionites are strict followers of the Law and refuse to work with any of Pauls writings, and even look at Acts with a questioning eye. They are strong into Peter and James. The Ebionites would be considered Messianic Jews or Messianic Gentilies depending on your heritage, and so are still popular today. These Messianic Jews are the judaizers which are talked of in the NT.

Interesting thing to look at..

The Gnostics said Jesus and God were homoousios (of same substance), and this term was used in the Nicean council of 325..

So one critical idea of the trinitarian thinking is a neo-platonic gnostic idea, most likely started in Alexandria where Gnostic philosophical thought was very popular.

Postulare42
19th April 2007, 03:24 PM
N.B. : "paracletos" - advocate (in the sense of "attorney for the defense" in a court case) A person called before the Sanhedrin was entitled to an advocate. In Greco-Roman courts, the accused was entitled to a "paracletos", or in koine slang, a "tent maker".

Danage
29th December 2007, 05:44 PM
The [Modern] Arian Catholic Creed

I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD,
Creator of Heaven and earth,
And of all things visible and invisible.
And in his Spiritual Son*, Jesus Christ,
Whom was born of Mary and Joseph**,
Was not consubstantial nor co-eternal with G-d the Father almighty,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, died, and was buried.
On the third day His Spirit was resurrected.
He ascended into Heaven,
And sitteth at the right hand of G-d, the Father almighty.
Whence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead,
Of whose Kingdom there shall be no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit,
The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,
The communion of saints,
The forgiveness of sins,
The resurrection of the Spirit***,
And life everlasting.
Amen

* I would add that Jesus was also a Son of God by the generation bedore the ages, and by divine intervention to his birth

** As I am a believer in the Virgin Birth, I would replace "and" with "to"

*** I would add, "and the Body" as the ancient Arian Church and the Bible attests.

Other than these, I am with agreement with this Creed.


Other assertations of my Theology, arian in nature, extracted from old posts of mine from another forum.

"my Divinity-theology and Christology is in a nut shell this:

I subscribe and adhere the Shema of Israel, that Yahweh, my God is only ONE. He is One in person, in glory and worthy to receive ultimate worship.

Jesus Christ was prior to his Incarnation a personal entity called the Wisdom and the Word. He was not an angel (in particular sense) and neither was he the God Almighty. Jesus was first-born, begotten Son of God.
He was begotten again in the womb of virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (which I believe is the power of God - when referred as person, He is the very person of Unipersonal Yahweh).
When Jesus walked on earth, he did not only appear to be a man, but was a man - he was a 100 % man - only without sin like Adam before he fell. Jesus had his "previous life" in Divine Dimension, but abandoned it and took the form of a servant, the very form and nature of the man, thus being the Son of (Hu)man and the antilutron or the corresponding price of ransom for all of humanity."

furthermore I wrote...

"Let me clear the picture of my view on Jesus Christ more:

- I do not believe that preincarnate Christ was the God Yahweh

- Pre-existent Christ is a creature, but different kind a creature than anyone else, because all other things are created thru (not "by") him. (John 1. , Col. 1.)

- Christ was the Logos and also called the Wisdom - but this does not mean that Christ as a Wisdom is the Wisdom of God, as a part of God and his quality, but rather a name or term. (Prov.8.)

- Bible tells that there are many 'gods' and lords [or those who are called as such] (this very term used somewhere in 2.Cor.) and even people are called gods. Pre-incarnate Christ was El Gibbor, "a mighty god", i.e divine creature.

- There is only One Yahweh. He is the only source of energy and life force. His is the Holy Spirit. He is the only El Elyon. He is only who lives without beginning, providing all things to all others (including his Son).

- What Jesus was prior to his birth to earth as a fully human? He was the Son of God, firstborn of creation! Lord of the angels, not "an angel", but "the Angel of Yahweh", who moved before the House of Israel in the wilderness.

- From the Bible I recognize that many a creature are called "gods", but no one else is called Yahweh, the only true God. This Unipersonal God of Israel I worship."



I agree with dark_knight on the above.
I believe in a pre-incarnate Jesus, but that he was indeed not G-d.

Micah 2:5
His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity.

I agree with the Virgin Birth now, but I also believe that once you die you sleep the sleep of death.

Thus I put:

I BELIEVE IN ONE G-D,
Creator of Heaven and earth,
And of all things visible and invisible.
And in his Spiritual Son, Jesus Christ,
Whom was born of Mary, married to Joseph,
Was not consubstantial but was co-eternal with G-d the Father almighty,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, died, and was buried.
On the third day his Spirit was resurrected.
He ascended into Heaven,
And sitteth at the right hand of G-d, the Father almighty.
Whence he shall come again to judge the living and the dead,
Of whose Kingdom there shall be no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit,
The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church,
The communion of saints,
The forgiveness of sins,
The resurrection of the Spirit and the Body,
And life everlasting.
Amen

Andreas
14th January 2008, 02:07 AM
Dear Friends,
If Jesus didn't resurected in body, it means the Bible is not The Word of God, because the Bible give testimony about the resurection of Christ.
With love:-)()
Andreas

pre-nicean berean
14th January 2008, 03:09 AM
<TABLE><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=v-ref><NOBR>Jhn 2:19 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&version=NASB#) </NOBR></TD><TD class=v-body>Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=v-ref><NOBR>Jhn 2:20 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&version=NASB#) </NOBR></TD><TD class=v-body>The Jews then said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=v-ref><NOBR>Jhn 2:21 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Jhn&chapter=2&version=NASB#) </NOBR></TD><TD class=v-body>But He was speaking of the temple of His body. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


<TABLE><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=v-ref><NOBR>Luk 24:36 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Luk&chapter=24&version=NASB#) </NOBR></TD><TD class=v-body>While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, "Peace be to you." </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=v-ref><NOBR>Luk 24:37 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Luk&chapter=24&version=NASB#) </NOBR></TD><TD class=v-body>But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=v-ref><NOBR>Luk 24:38 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Luk&chapter=24&version=NASB#) </NOBR></TD><TD class=v-body>And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=v-ref><NOBR>Luk 24:39 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Luk&chapter=24&version=NASB#) </NOBR></TD><TD class=v-body>"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD class=v-ref><NOBR>Luk 24:40 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=Luk&chapter=24&version=NASB#) </NOBR></TD><TD class=v-body>And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

David Kone
1st February 2008, 09:31 PM
I respectfully disagree. Nothing that was recorded of what Jesus said pertains to this world. The temple of his body is not a metaphor; it is a hidden teaching in direct reference to the Spirit. The physical body is just a temporary shell not worthy of glorifying; it is an illusion nothing more. Why waste space announcing the occurrence of illusions. Our illusionary body and our soul, that is our desires, exist only within the true body.

In Luke he is showing them his ressusitated physical body, which survived to live another period of time.

Danage
12th March 2008, 07:23 PM
Was not consubstantial but was co-eternal with G-d the Father almighty,

I might like to note that I mean that I believe Christ was a pre-existent Archangel as backed up by Micah 5:2, and he the first-born of all Creation. He wasn't, strictly speaking, co-eternal. Jesus was a pre-existent Archangel, who existed with G-d, who became human.

Jesus John
14th March 2008, 09:46 AM
In the Islamic view point this is called "Shirk" which means taking deities beside God. Shirk shall never be forgiven by God.

By the way, dear St.Arius (Pbuh) is far away from this kind of a faith, this thoughts cant be called like Arianism. I think St.Arius will be complainant from this kind of words in the Judgement Day against people who used it (God knows the best)

St.Arius was killed by the Heretic Pagan-Roman-Greek Catholics but not about thoughts mixed with Paulic philosophy which you are defending now.

Postulare42
14th March 2008, 11:33 AM
In traditional angelology, it is Lucifer that is refered to as the first created and highest of the angels.

In this we are falling into the entire Nicene quagmire yet again. I believe that some ambiguities should be simply left, returning to focus upon the message of Jesus.

That, surely, is enough for one lifetimes effort. :)

Danage
14th March 2008, 11:48 AM
In the Islamic view point this is called "Shirk" which means taking deities beside God. Shirk shall never be forgiven by God.

By the way, dear St.Arius (Pbuh) is far away from this kind of a faith, this thoughts cant be called like Arianism. I think St.Arius will be complainant from this kind of words in the Judgement Day against people who used it (God knows the best)

St.Arius was killed by the Heretic Pagan-Roman-Greek Catholics but not about thoughts mixed with Paulic philosophy which you are defending now.

In traditional angelology, it is Lucifer that is refered to as the first created and highest of the angels.

In this we are falling into the entire Nicene quagmire yet again. I believe that some ambiguities should be simply left, returning to focus upon the message of Jesus.

That, surely, is enough for one lifetimes effort. :)


What I mean to say is I believe Jesus was a pre-existent angel, the first created by G-d, but not G-d or a part thereof of G-d (I am an Arian like yourself afterall, I am just not a Radical Biblical Unitarian).

This theory revolves around the prophecy of Micah 5:2: 'But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting'.

John 8:58: 'Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.'

John 3:13: 'And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven'.

Well, that's my argument in favour of Christ's pre-existence.

brotherkev
11th October 2008, 06:58 AM
I am just not a Radical Biblical Unitarian).

.

And what's wrong with Biblical Unitarians ... o:)

Danage
11th October 2008, 12:06 PM
And what's wrong with Biblical Unitarians ... o:)

I didn't mean to say that there is anything wrong with the Radical Unitarians, but I hold to the Arian Biblical Unitarian position.